Now here is a surprise....

[Scott S]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

But it is the responsibility of management to ensure what gets produced is the best that can be.

So I walk up to somebody on the line and tell him/her for the 5th time they are still doing a crappy job, I document the discussion for the 5th time and forward the paper to the union rep for the 5th time. The union claims for the 5th time that the employee is not properly trained and I have the employee trained for the 6th time.

And you say it's a management problem? Have you ever heard a union rep say gawd your right in the best interest of the product and company fire the dumb SOB?

Scott S

[Dan40]

How can anyone say Detroit has a problem? Way back in the early 80's, FORD went out and bought a Toyota Celica. They took it to the lab and tore it down to the last nut and bolt to "reverse engineer" it. After a complete examination they came to the conclusion that Toyota could not possibly build the car. Being highly intelligent and educated automotive engineers, they did not let the THOUSANDS of Celicas driving by on the street bother their conclusions.


Dan

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Scott S

So I walk up to somebody on the line and tell him/her for the 5th time they are still doing a crappy job, I document the discussion for the 5th time and forward the paper to the union rep for the 5th time. The union claims for the 5th time that the employee is not properly trained and I have the employee trained for the 6th time.

And you say it's a management problem? Have you ever heard a union rep say gawd your right in the best interest of the product and company fire the dumb SOB?

Scott S

Scott,
Quality is absolutely a management issue, as is design. I work in QA - there are methodologies that could be implemented that would reduce manufacturing errors. Design is another issue that the big 3 fall down on. The Japanese companies think about their products before they manufacture them, and they plan them for the best layout, ease of assembly, and so on.

The Corvette design team is probably the one exception in American cars (that I know of) that actually listens to their customers, and they are making an astounding car that gets better every year.

Unions have caused a lot of problems, but they are not the sole cause. They did not have these financial problems when they had the majority of market share and were still paying the union salaries. The fact that they are not selling enough cars is the problem.

Have you seen the new Camaro? If you were a Chevy guy would you buy one? I'm a Chevy guy and I would rather have a new Mustang. Japanese cars tend to be (with a few exceptions) bland - great for the masses not wishing to make a statement. American cars tend to be (with a handful of exceptions) damned ugly.

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by Scott S

So I walk up to somebody on the line and tell him/her for the 5th time they are still doing a crappy job, I document the discussion for the 5th time and forward the paper to the union rep for the 5th time. The union claims for the 5th time that the employee is not properly trained and I have the employee trained for the 6th time.

And you say it's a management problem? Have you ever heard a union rep say gawd your right in the best interest of the product and company fire the dumb SOB?

Scott S

As a matter of fact, yes. We deal with several unions - on a daily basis - and while the 70's and early 80's were mighty argumentative and given to the kind of horsesh*t you hold out, a staggering loss of business to non-union contractors altered the business perspectives of most unions (execs as well as rank & file) within a scant few years. Mind you, they still hold to the work rules and signed contract agreements that establish disciplinary protocol, but a slug who makes them look like a$$holes is quick to be moved to another project or to the unemployment line. And, yes, we lost equipment to fires or vandalism; had ready-to-act picket lines thrown across access points; even had police involvement (they're unionized, too) to keep all parties separated, at least at the job site. But the attitudes changed awful fast when management decided that they weren't about to put themselves out of business because of unsustainable costs.

We have unions within our sacrosanct government organization as well - and while it is damn difficult to discharge even the worst employee, it does happen. It does NOT happen, however, without the full and committed backing of the executive staff, who regularly shirk from common-sense decisions on the threat of political consequence. Can't get that lineworker to produce after the 5th warning? - are you saying your contract is so poorly written it doesn't define the limits? And who agreed to that contract?

At the end of the day, YES, the unions are/can be huge impediments to stable, reasonably efficient operations. However, until management decides that the whole organization has to prosper - not just them - the union is only one cause in the effect. And when times are bad, management has far, far more power than the unions do. Ask the ATC folks about that.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

Quality is a management decision, C'bill.

The value of what the workforce produces isn't wholly dependent on the brass hats; some pride in workmanship must show up in the men who do the work.

But it is the responsibility of management to ensure what gets produced is the best that can be.

I agree but the end result is still CRAP and i won't buy it.

[SPF2245]

I have no problem with anyone making a profit, but when it also becomes so apparent that they're high wages and benifits are part of the reason for that companies collapse, I also don't care. You want high wages, great, want to demand it by near criminal acts during contact negotations, fine...when that company bleeds red and your unwilling to make changes to assist in it's survival, great...have a fun wait at the employment center. Just don't ask me for a dime or any to feel any remorse for not buying your product when I was unimpressed with it to begin with.

[Jamo]

Scott...right on the money. I deal with that bullsh!t every day when it reaches the grievance level.

Steve...unless and until you actually get firsthand experience in dealing with a union on an the everyday level...please, stop pulling crap out of the air. Union rules inhibit quality and efficiency by definition. When no union is present (like with your heralded Japanese companies), management and employees can meet together regularly over coffee or lunch and work out the best methodology for approaching a task and obtaining the goal.

Hard to do that when a union requires notice and discussion before negotiations which might result in a management-employee lunch meeting a decade or two down the road pursuant to an agreed-upon agenda which is voted on by the international committee beforehand and subject to grievance and arbitration should a non-agenda item be discussed...

Really...this is not a subject one can BS his way through just for discussion's sake.

[VRM]

Jamo,
I recall that you indicated crappy union workmanship was the cause when that part of the tunnel in Boston fell and killed that woman. Later analysis showed that the problem was that the epoxy bonding agent could shift under sustained tension loading. Trying to BS your way through engineering school again?

I am generally no friend of unions, and have crossed picket lines, but I have also had enough experience with management and unions to know that it is usually not just a one sided problem. I landed in the thick of one of those battles when the company tried to blame the union for a massive outage (a union worker made a mistake after trying to follow a bunch of snaked cables). It would have taken us about 3-4 hours to fix everything, but some jackass company lawyer came down with cops to seal the area and prevent us from fixing the problem so that he could investigate the 'union malfeasance'. He was joined shortly afterwards by a jackass union lawyer, and the two of them argued for a few hours and took statements from each of us (2 union guys, one manager, and me (consultant)). We finally busied out all of our office phone lines so that the lawyers would have to go someplace else when they were calling people - we blamed it on the outage even though it happened 5-6 hours after the fact (I made up some story about cascading circuit failures or some such thing). 18 hours later (and lots of overtime for us) we finally had everything fixed. Because of the length and scope of the outage we had to go before the DPU and explain what happened. I also got to explain that the company had not instituted a 2-3 year old plan (proposed by a union guy and developed by me, that guy, and a woman I used to work with) to diversify all the data circuit routing so that outages like this would be significantly less likely. There was no union input or special training needed for that, just a signed work order.

You are paid to be biased, so, while I am sure that you are able to present your story very well (and I also have a number of instances where the union is the bad guy), it is only one side of the whole.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by VRM

Jamo,
I recall that you indicated crappy union workmanship was the cause when that part of the tunnel in Boston fell and killed that woman. Later analysis showed that the problem was that the epoxy bonding agent could shift under sustained tension loading. Trying to BS your way through engineering school again?

I am generally no friend of unions, and have crossed picket lines, but I have also had enough experience with management and unions to know that it is usually not just a one sided problem. I landed in the thick of one of those battles when the company tried to blame the union for a massive outage (a union worker made a mistake after trying to follow a bunch of snaked cables). It would have taken us about 3-4 hours to fix everything, but some jackass company lawyer came down with cops to seal the area and prevent us from fixing the problem so that he could investigate the 'union malfeasance'. He was joined shortly afterwards by a jackass union lawyer, and the two of them argued for a few hours and took statements from each of us (2 union guys, one manager, and me (consultant)). We finally busied out all of our office phone lines so that the lawyers would have to go someplace else when they were calling people - we blamed it on the outage even though it happened 5-6 hours after the fact (I made up some story about cascading circuit failures or some such thing). 18 hours later (and lots of overtime for us) we finally had everything fixed. Because of the length and scope of the outage we had to go before the DPU and explain what happened. I also got to explain that the company had not instituted a 2-3 year old plan (proposed by a union guy and developed by me, that guy, and a woman I used to work with) to diversify all the data circuit routing so that outages like this would be significantly less likely. There was no union input or special training needed for that, just a signed work order.

You are paid to be biased, so, while I am sure that you are able to present your story very well (and I also have a number of instances where the union is the bad guy), it is only one side of the whole.

Yes SteveO, I, like many others (including a sh!tload of engineers), initially thought the bolts failed on that big sucking hole...later tests found the epoxy to be at least partially to blame. We may never know...note the process used to secure the "roof" is referred to as "bolt and epoxy" so one might still argue (and, in fact, that argument continues) that improper installation of the bolts was also a contributing factor, as was failure to maintain/double-check the installation afterwards (from what I've read from the OSHA reports, the latter being the fault of both management and working foreman who, as non-supervisors, were members of the union). [You do understand the concept of contributory negilgence I presume?] Of course, then we need to remember the extraordinary cost overruns involved in that Anus of Boston, much of it due to union inefficiency, which of course leads to cost-cutting down the road...which is, of course, part of the issue with the Big Three not being able to utilize all of its cash and design talents to create cheaper/better products instead of paying through the nose for union members who no longer work for the company, and for union members who are currently overpaid for the work they produce (which, of course, is sometimes nothing at all...sometimes called "featherbedding")...

As to your "experience"...I am sorry, but one or two "experiences" with a union situation or even long-time experience some may have with a single job or employer-union relationship fail to impress me or change my thoughts even by the width of a knat's pubic hair. See, I've represented folks in several dozen industries over the past three decades: Numerous segments of agriculture, manufacturing, healthcare, service, retail, transportation, government (at several levels), non-profits, etc. I've dealt with just about every union out there, including some which are populated by personal heros of mine (cops and firefighters) and the basic elements are all still there...job protection trumps innovation, members' intersts over the public's interest, and jobs/wages based on superiority of seniority instead of superiority of ability. I even see union folks sell their brothers and sisters down the road...experiences obtained from representing entire industries in multi-employer bargaining against multi-union local groups where the union local from one employer undercuts the other union locals. Loyalty for the common good my ass.

As for my own personal bias...well there's bias gained from lack of information (aka ignorance), and then there's the bias that sets in based upon having the same observation/result repeated over an extended period based upon continuous study. Pavlov's dog certainly can be said to have developed a bias in the latter mode...as have I. [Now, if I could only learn to lick thyself.]

I'm sure it does not matter to your closed manner of reaching a conclusion about others that, in fact, I have indeed represented unions and union members over the years, or that I have been a union member on several occasions, including most recently in my current stint in teaching labor and employment law. Am I paid? Yup...folks pay me because they obviously find value in what I have done and do, summed up above in this post. Anyone paying you for what you wrote in your post?

Steve...I like you, but I do come across dishonesty in your arguments which is what I believe ticks others off around here. Simply note that it does not bother me personally when you direct it at me...I get paid (as you say) to deal with dishonest BS, so thanks for the practice.

[427 S/O]

Oh goodie! Corvette history! One of my favourite topics!


There is a 'bowtie' club.....somewhere?. Do a search and you just might multiply those 'goodies'.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by 427 S/O

Oh goodie! Corvette history! One of my favourite topics!


There is a 'bowtie' club.....somewhere?. Do a search and you just might multiply those 'goodies'.

Got plenty already, but thank you for your interest. Another of my favourite topics is Cobra history, but it is a pretty quiet subject around CC - not a lot of posting going on.

If it was not for your heartfelt concern for me increasing my 'goodies' I would almost think that you were trying to get me to go away so as not to have your ideas challenged. That would be a sad and pathetic way to try to win arguments - certainly nothing you would do, right?

Steve

[427 S/O]

What you call win?, I call contrary, in your words of course.........

[VRM]

Originally Posted by 427 S/O

What you call win?, I call contrary, in your words of course.........

Ummmm.....what?

[Wayne Maybury]

I laugh when I hear that the Japanese invented this or did that. They rarely invent anything. They take something that someone else made and then they improve it. Think back to the crap the Japanese were producing 25 years ago. Virtually the entire Japanese continuous improvement process is based on American quality policies.

The one thing that the Big 3 have in common is that every plant they have is represented by the UAW. The only off shore car company plant that ever became unionized was the Hundai assembly plant in Bromont, Quebec which was shut down within weeks after the union was certified. They would rather shut down a relatively new assembly plant than have a unionized shop.

As far as trade goes, the Japanese have been buying from us what they need to fuel their factories and selling to us what they want to sell. It is virtually impossible to sell anything made in the US or Canada to Japan unless they NEED it. Their government totally protects their domestic manufacturing.

Wayne

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

I laugh when I hear that the Japanese invented this or did that. They rarely invent anything. They take something that someone else made and then they improve it. Think back to the crap the Japanese were producing 25 years ago. Virtually the entire Japanese continuous improvement process is based on American quality policies.

The one thing that the Big 3 have in common is that every plant they have is represented by the UAW. The only off shore car company plant that ever became unionized was the Hundai assembly plant in Bromont, Quebec which was shut down within weeks after the union was certified. They would rather shut down a relatively new assembly plant than have a unionized shop.

Wayne

Wayne,you're pretty good at"selective"posting.

25 years ago?try 35-40.25 years ago Japanese cars were made better than our "Detroit Iron".Nothing says garbage like late70s-early 80's GM cars.

American quality policies?That's funny.You mean Dr.Demings quality policies.The ones Japan took to heart and Detroit said F.U. to.

Walmart did the same thing as Hyundai.

[Wayne Maybury]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

Wayne,you're pretty good at"selective"posting.

25 years ago?try 35-40.25 years ago Japanese cars were made better than our "Detroit Iron".Nothing says garbage like late70s-early 80's GM cars.

American quality policies?That's funny.You mean Dr.Demings quality policies.The ones Japan took to heart and Detroit said F.U. to.

Walmart did the same thing as Hyundai.

Bill

I'm not really sure what the "selective" shot is about but at least you think I'm good at it.

OK, 30 instead of 25 years ago. They still produced crap but learned from Demming (sorry my memory failed me yesterday so I just said American) whereas many American companies brushed his theory aside.

Walmart has just closed a tire shop at one of their stores up here that received union certification a month or two ago and I live half a mile away from a McDonald's that was shut down weeks after the union got in.

Unions were a good thing when companies and management were taking advantage of the workers back in the 30's but in most cases they have now outlived their usefullness.

Wayne

[Bill Bess]

I have 30 years of working as a management person dealing with union workers, contracts, labor rules, shop committees , strikes and those pesky union officials.. and all of these things combined are part of the root cause of our problems.

Many union workers are somewhat lazy, don't want to do quality work, don't like to meet deadlines, they steal, cheat and try to cause as much trouble as possible.
They do however want high wages, super benefits and plenty of time off. They also want the company to pay for everything along with money for college for they're kids and a healthy retirement and 100% free medical.
Just ask a UAW or Teamsters about their benefits and entitlements...it's un real.

I guess you know I don't really like union folks very well although there are a few with good standards and values that actually do produce..guess where they end up...management.

I saw a commercial on TV the other night..it showed an assemblyline with a worker hanging a wheel and tire onto a hub, he then placed the five lug nuts onto the wheel and proceeded to tighten them with a pneumatic impact gun.
The vehicle continues down the line to the next worker that slips an automatic lug wrench tool that tightens the same 5 lugs that had just been tighten by the first worker, maybe this has something to do with a special torgue requirement?
Two union employees to put on a wheel.........back in 1960, I witnessed at several car manufaturing plants the same job being done by only one man.
This is only one of the example that demonstrats why cars cost so much and unions are so strong..what's wrong with this picture?

In addition, when auto unions require that a fixed number of union workers are mandated to work on a car when machines can do most if the work..the costs will continue to climb.

I'm done..this is only a small part of the problems that unions cause.

Bill

[Jamo]

waiting......

[VRM]

Jamo,

Quite honestly you have no idea what my 'experience' is, and yet you assume that I have none when it comes to dealing with unions on a day to day basis.. Attempting to belittle my experience by putting it in quotes while trumpeting yours as the be-all-end-all is arrogant and stupid. My experience is what it is, as is yours, and I have formed my ideas and opinions based on mine, as you have based on yours. A lot of that experience I have would back up everything you said about unions - I have seen similar and I think it is pathetic. I've also seen managers sell out other managers, create fiefdoms of yes men for their own personal glorification, and kill projects because it was contrary to their own whims - and they are pathetic also. People are people whether they are union or not. Bad employees can hide in a union, or they can hide behind arrogance, personality cults, or indifferent upper management.

My personal experience is with every one of the original RBOCs, along with other smaller companies like Cincinati Bell. This includes their unions and managers, and my experience with them all has some good and some bad. I've also worked with dozens of phone companies internationally - some with trade unions, some without. And the majority of my time spent at different locations was not usually measured in hours or days, but weeks or months.

I'm not sure what about me or what I write you think is dishonest - I've been a lot of places and done a lot of stuff under a variety of conditions. Ron61 and I have shared some of those bizarre telco stories privately ranging from funny to tragic (union guy jumping on the hood of a managers car during an NET strike - she panics and floors it and kills the guy. He got what he deserved IMHO). The Dilbert strip was based on real world events at PacBell. Perhaps phone company unions are different that what you are used to dealing with - I would not expect that to be the case, but my personal experience with unions outside phone companies is very limited so it is certainly possible. Still, I've crossed my share of pickets, and had my share of grievances filed against me. I've also pissed off my share of managers when I have had to rewrite/scrap their plans because they forgot to take earthquake zoning into account, or their air conditioning or power calculations were wrong. I was a 'fixer' (my old boss' phrase for what I did - not mine) in switch/data services and 411/911 for the companies I worked for. I had to go onsite and co-ordinate installations and solve complex technical problems when the locals could not (something a lot of them resented, too). Ever try to co-ordinate fixing a data circuit spanning 4 different telcos and 4 different unions all with different rules about what they could and could not do? It is a huge PITA, and management does everything it can to bury it's head in the sand about its process failures.

Your comments regarding the tunnel ceiling collapse were not that the bolt(s) failed but that the union workers who installed them were at fault (an unreasonable assumption as we did not yet know why the bolts failed).

Big Dig Tunnel Thrill Ride

In fact, Powers Fasteners was indicted last year. The NTSB report (not sure what OSHA has to do with materials and failure analysis in this case, but please feel free to let me know) indicated that safety issues were:
* Insufficient understanding among designers and builders of the nature of adhesive anchoring systems;
* Lack of standards for the testing of adhesive anchors in sustained tensile-load applications;
* Inadequate regulatory requirements for tunnel inspections; and
* Lack of national standards for the design of tunnel finishes.

The unions, as far as I know, were not responsible for the design, load testing, inspection regulations, or national standards. I am not a lawyer, so if I am missing something in their contract that indicates that any of those areas falls into their area of responsibility please let me know. Regarding the builders, I suppose that could include the unions and management of the companies building the tunnel. So do the unions have engineers who verify specs provided by engineering groups, or are they just supposed to follow the work orders supplied to them? My experience with CWA and others has always been the latter. Perhaps the union foreman should have some level of responsibility for the lack of inspections after the first failure in a different location, but something like that usually indicates poor communication, and the NTSB cites the companies rather than the unions for not performing inspections after the first unexplained failure.

You made a call based on what you thought my experience was with unions. Clearly you have no clue about that because you don't know me well enough to even have that information. You also made a call regarding the bolts and the unions who put them in before you had enough information to make an informed decision. You know what they say about assuming - just please leave me out of it.

BTW, sorry it took so long to write this - I was also reloading a few servers and showing a noob how to read MIBs.
Oh, and I take nothing here personally (well, except once) - an old flame once said I reminded her of Spock with Steven Wrights sense of humour.

[VRM]

Oh, and Jamo,
I can't say that I know you well enough to say that I like you, but I do enjoy going toe to toe with you, and you are reasonably interesting and generally well spoken. I'd be happy to buy the first pint in person, but whether I stayed for second would depend on whether you were being too full of yourself or not.

Got the warm fuzzies yet?