Now here is a surprise....

[Scott S]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

But it is the responsibility of management to ensure what gets produced is the best that can be.

So I walk up to somebody on the line and tell him/her for the 5th time they are still doing a crappy job, I document the discussion for the 5th time and forward the paper to the union rep for the 5th time. The union claims for the 5th time that the employee is not properly trained and I have the employee trained for the 6th time.

And you say it's a management problem? Have you ever heard a union rep say gawd your right in the best interest of the product and company fire the dumb SOB?

Scott S

[Dan40]

How can anyone say Detroit has a problem? Way back in the early 80's, FORD went out and bought a Toyota Celica. They took it to the lab and tore it down to the last nut and bolt to "reverse engineer" it. After a complete examination they came to the conclusion that Toyota could not possibly build the car. Being highly intelligent and educated automotive engineers, they did not let the THOUSANDS of Celicas driving by on the street bother their conclusions.


Dan

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Scott S

So I walk up to somebody on the line and tell him/her for the 5th time they are still doing a crappy job, I document the discussion for the 5th time and forward the paper to the union rep for the 5th time. The union claims for the 5th time that the employee is not properly trained and I have the employee trained for the 6th time.

And you say it's a management problem? Have you ever heard a union rep say gawd your right in the best interest of the product and company fire the dumb SOB?

Scott S

Scott,
Quality is absolutely a management issue, as is design. I work in QA - there are methodologies that could be implemented that would reduce manufacturing errors. Design is another issue that the big 3 fall down on. The Japanese companies think about their products before they manufacture them, and they plan them for the best layout, ease of assembly, and so on.

The Corvette design team is probably the one exception in American cars (that I know of) that actually listens to their customers, and they are making an astounding car that gets better every year.

Unions have caused a lot of problems, but they are not the sole cause. They did not have these financial problems when they had the majority of market share and were still paying the union salaries. The fact that they are not selling enough cars is the problem.

Have you seen the new Camaro? If you were a Chevy guy would you buy one? I'm a Chevy guy and I would rather have a new Mustang. Japanese cars tend to be (with a few exceptions) bland - great for the masses not wishing to make a statement. American cars tend to be (with a handful of exceptions) damned ugly.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by VRM

Scott,
The Corvette design team is probably the one exception in American cars (that I know of) that actually listens to their customers, and they are making an astounding car that gets better every year.

Unions have caused a lot of problems, but they are not the sole cause. They did not have these financial problems when they had the majority of market share and were still paying the union salaries. The fact that they are not selling enough cars is the problem.

.

You mean that the customers asked them to build a Vette slower than a Dodge Pick-up?(1978-Little Red Express Wagon).It took Chevy around 50 years to come up with a car that wasn't laughed at abroad.Not to mention,the "protectionary"policies of the 14th floor.Everytime another division would come up with a car with potential to out shine the 'Vette,that car was cancelled.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

You mean that the customers asked them to build a Vette slower than a Dodge Pick-up?(1978-Little Red Express Wagon).It took Chevy around 50 years to come up with a car that wasn't laughed at abroad.Not to mention,the "protectionary"policies of the 14th floor.Everytime another division would come up with a car with potential to out shine the 'Vette,that car was cancelled.

Oh goodie! Corvette history! One of my favourite topics!
Corvettes have not been laughed at for a long time - roughly 1960 when privateers Cunningham and Casner entered 4 Vettes at Lemans and one of them placed 8th. The Vettes were faster down the Mulsanne than just about everything else that often cost 2-3 times the price of the Vettes . They also scored a bunch of race/class wins against Ferraris and Astons at places like Sebring, Daytona, Marlboro, and mostly without real factory support. Cobras were able to beat them regularly, but they only did so for a few years. An L88 Vette blew its engine (a $.50 part that the race team wanted to replace, but were not allowed to by GM) while leading its class at the '67 LM race.
Pretty much any Vette from about '66 to 71 would beat that Express Truck in just about every category except maybe cargo capacity. The '79 Vette had to adhere to a different set of regs than the Express Truck - apples and oranges.

Corvettes sucked for a lot of years during the mid '70s to the late 80s. And yes, they squashed things like the Fiero (not a good idea IMHO considering the performance the Fiero was starting to produce).

These days Corvettes have regularly won at ALMS and LeMans against Ferraris, Vipers, Astons, Porsches, and so on. Go to Corvettes at Carlisle, or a number of other events and you will find reps (sales, engineering, design, and so on) there as well. There has been a lot of feedback in both directions about current Corvette development, and it has resulted in improvements to the cars. The new group is much more welcoming of competition and honest feedback.

The Vipers V10 will not be compliant with new regs in 2010, and rumours indicate that no development has been done for a replacement. I had hoped for some factory race competition between the Viper and the new Vette ZR1 (and the Astons).

Steve

[Dan40]

When Obama takes office, he WILL help out GM, Ford, and Chrysler. In his campaign for the Presidency, he did promise to help small businesses that make less then $250,000. per year. And now GM, Ford, and Chrysler all qualify.
[plagiarizing Jay Leno]


Dan

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by Scott S

So I walk up to somebody on the line and tell him/her for the 5th time they are still doing a crappy job, I document the discussion for the 5th time and forward the paper to the union rep for the 5th time. The union claims for the 5th time that the employee is not properly trained and I have the employee trained for the 6th time.

And you say it's a management problem? Have you ever heard a union rep say gawd your right in the best interest of the product and company fire the dumb SOB?

Scott S

As a matter of fact, yes. We deal with several unions - on a daily basis - and while the 70's and early 80's were mighty argumentative and given to the kind of horsesh*t you hold out, a staggering loss of business to non-union contractors altered the business perspectives of most unions (execs as well as rank & file) within a scant few years. Mind you, they still hold to the work rules and signed contract agreements that establish disciplinary protocol, but a slug who makes them look like a$$holes is quick to be moved to another project or to the unemployment line. And, yes, we lost equipment to fires or vandalism; had ready-to-act picket lines thrown across access points; even had police involvement (they're unionized, too) to keep all parties separated, at least at the job site. But the attitudes changed awful fast when management decided that they weren't about to put themselves out of business because of unsustainable costs.

We have unions within our sacrosanct government organization as well - and while it is damn difficult to discharge even the worst employee, it does happen. It does NOT happen, however, without the full and committed backing of the executive staff, who regularly shirk from common-sense decisions on the threat of political consequence. Can't get that lineworker to produce after the 5th warning? - are you saying your contract is so poorly written it doesn't define the limits? And who agreed to that contract?

At the end of the day, YES, the unions are/can be huge impediments to stable, reasonably efficient operations. However, until management decides that the whole organization has to prosper - not just them - the union is only one cause in the effect. And when times are bad, management has far, far more power than the unions do. Ask the ATC folks about that.