Quote:
Originally Posted by VRM
Jamo,
I recall that you indicated crappy union workmanship was the cause when that part of the tunnel in Boston fell and killed that woman. Later analysis showed that the problem was that the epoxy bonding agent could shift under sustained tension loading. Trying to BS your way through engineering school again?
I am generally no friend of unions, and have crossed picket lines, but I have also had enough experience with management and unions to know that it is usually not just a one sided problem. I landed in the thick of one of those battles when the company tried to blame the union for a massive outage (a union worker made a mistake after trying to follow a bunch of snaked cables). It would have taken us about 3-4 hours to fix everything, but some jackass company lawyer came down with cops to seal the area and prevent us from fixing the problem so that he could investigate the 'union malfeasance'. He was joined shortly afterwards by a jackass union lawyer, and the two of them argued for a few hours and took statements from each of us (2 union guys, one manager, and me (consultant)). We finally busied out all of our office phone lines so that the lawyers would have to go someplace else when they were calling people - we blamed it on the outage even though it happened 5-6 hours after the fact (I made up some story about cascading circuit failures or some such thing). 18 hours later (and lots of overtime for us) we finally had everything fixed. Because of the length and scope of the outage we had to go before the DPU and explain what happened. I also got to explain that the company had not instituted a 2-3 year old plan (proposed by a union guy and developed by me, that guy, and a woman I used to work with) to diversify all the data circuit routing so that outages like this would be significantly less likely. There was no union input or special training needed for that, just a signed work order.
You are paid to be biased, so, while I am sure that you are able to present your story very well (and I also have a number of instances where the union is the bad guy), it is only one side of the whole.
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Yes SteveO, I, like many others (including a sh!tload of engineers), initially thought the bolts failed on that big sucking hole...later tests found the epoxy to be at least partially to blame. We may never know...note the process used to secure the "roof" is referred to as "
bolt and epoxy" so one might still argue (and, in fact, that argument continues) that improper installation of the bolts was
also a contributing factor, as was failure to maintain/double-check the installation afterwards (from what I've read from the OSHA reports, the latter being the fault of both management and working foreman who, as non-supervisors, were members of the union). [You do understand the concept of contributory negilgence I presume?] Of course, then we need to remember the extraordinary cost overruns involved in that Anus of Boston, much of it due to union inefficiency, which of course leads to cost-cutting down the road...which is, of course, part of the issue with the Big Three not being able to utilize all of its cash and design talents to create cheaper/better products instead of paying through the nose for union members who no longer work for the company, and for union members who are currently overpaid for the work they produce (which, of course, is sometimes
nothing at all...sometimes called "featherbedding")...
As to your "experience"...I am sorry, but one or two "experiences" with a union situation or even long-time experience some may have with a single job or employer-union relationship fail to impress me or change my thoughts even by the width of a knat's pubic hair. See, I've represented folks in several dozen industries over the past three decades: Numerous segments of agriculture, manufacturing, healthcare, service, retail, transportation, government (at several levels), non-profits, etc. I've dealt with just about every union out there, including some which are populated by personal heros of mine (cops and firefighters) and the basic elements are all still there...job protection trumps innovation, members' intersts over the public's interest, and jobs/wages based on superiority of seniority instead of superiority of ability. I even see union folks sell their brothers and sisters down the road...experiences obtained from representing entire industries in multi-employer bargaining against multi-union local groups where the union local from one employer undercuts the other union locals. Loyalty for the common good my ass.
As for my own personal bias...well there's bias gained from lack of information (aka ignorance), and then there's the bias that sets in based upon having the same observation/result repeated over an extended period based upon continuous study. Pavlov's dog certainly can be said to have developed a bias in the latter mode...as have I. [Now, if I could only learn to lick thyself.]
I'm sure it does not matter to your closed manner of reaching a conclusion about others that, in fact, I have indeed represented unions and union members over the years, or that I have been a union member on several occasions, including most recently in my current stint in teaching labor and employment law. Am I paid? Yup...folks pay me because they obviously find value in what I have done and do, summed up above in this post. Anyone paying you for what you wrote in your post?
Steve...I like you, but I do come across dishonesty in your arguments which is what I believe ticks others off around here. Simply note that it does not bother me personally when you direct it at me...I get paid (as you say) to deal with dishonest BS, so thanks for the practice.
Hybrid Mode
