Should the US bailout the big three automakers?

[Jamo]

I did...he hung himself on another tree (thread).

[What'saCobra?]

Whilst it does seem a bit over-reaching to conclude a fellow Cobraphile (presumed) ought to be required to leave the planet for what amounts to political thought and writing, intelligently and factually responding to a one-sided and vacuous unction about union "glory" and the cover-up of well-documented union leadership's excess cost, stupidity and current political perfidy, doesn't rise to the level of an "attack", IMHO.

Leaving the planet is actually quite expensive, even if preserving the corpus is ignored. We ought not to waste the required CO2 emissions (if someone thinks reducing plant food is logical).

Further, arguing with the judge seems fruitless in the extreme. Don't ask me how i know.

Perhaps sd doesn't have time to read the whole thread. Even so, today's labor laws are in place, for which i would be happy to thank the union leadership ghosts for their troubles (while ignoring their sins for the moment) and ask what have they done for me lately? Is it common to revere highwaymen that lighten my wallet based on 75 year old historical events, even if fairly disputed?

i might not enjoy reading sd's union-leadership's views of our current plans to install race-based reparations in the name of economic Stimulus, continued baby murder in the name of personal freedom of mothers and the elimination of secret union-election ballots in the name of more personal freedom, all current and well-publicized National Union Leadership positions. Not at all like your father's union and certainly not to be thanked, condoned or coddled.

But, then I might be fairly accused of overspeaking when i suggest that those leaders ought to be thrown into exceedingly deep wells (note the economy and simplicity) to meet the 12th Iman they are facilitating, sooner rather than later.
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Simply stated, if the US auto companies cannot make a reasonable return on their stockholder's investments, they will be broken-up into units which will be absorbed by competitors or discarded as necessary. Not unlike the baby Bell's, in the end after the smoke, grief and other effects cleared, our communication networks are quite efficient. 1¢ per minute for international calls is very efficient and unlimited continental calls for $25 per month is simply marvelous.

Wise auto rank and file ought to have their alternative plans already in place. Stone-walling will not work any more than re-writing the history of labor law in America.

[Jamo]

Yes...but those wells were probably dug by union trenchers, whereas NASA is limited in its union participation.

[Tom Kirkham]

White House going to have GM's Wagoner walk the plank. If I were a CEO and took any bail out money I would be very nervous...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090329/..._ge/gm_wagoner

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Tom Kirkham

White House going to have GM's Wagoner walk the plank. If I were a CEO and took any bail out money I would be very nervous...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090329/..._ge/gm_wagoner

Pontiac Aztek... born 2001- died 2005.

Any president and chief executive who allowed that thing (not to be confused with the VW Thing) to roam the streets needs to step down.

But a government hack will probably be far worse.

Steve

[Ron61]

Just saw this in the news. GM CEO is forced out by Govt. Not really sure if having the Govt. take over is any better but here is the link to the story.

http://www.reuters.com/article/busin...e=businessNews

Ron

[Tom Kirkham]

GM lost one quarter of its value today.

[Don]

Does anyone know the true facts, not speculation, was the ouster of Wagoner a condition of providing the initial funding ? What would have happened if Wagoner had said " NO "


AutoWeek: By DUTCH MANDEL

Article

General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner out, replaced by COO Fritz Henderson
President Obama's administration made history today with what some see as nothing short of government meddling in the affairs of big business.

What I see is something else: I see the administration showing that it is serious and raising the level of concern from yellow to orange.

Now there is a firm deadline and a message to bondholders, United Auto Worker union members and the American public: Do not be surprised if in the next 30 days--or even sooner-General Motors files for a controlled bankruptcy.

During the days of insolvent banks, insurance companies and other financial institutions, this message was loud and clear.

It's about showing force and instilling confidence. The people are looking for a leader, and for the past 70 days, that leader has said many things, yet few have resonated with those who got him elected. This message strikes right at his constituents: America.

Drastic measures, perhaps. But former GM chairman Rick Wagoner is a team player. He knew he had to take one for the team. And this was an enormous sacrifice, to leave the company he nurtured and developed.

His flaw is what helped GM get through its first 100 years: He was a conservative manager. But he managed and managed well. The pace of things, however, has increased, and it's all only gaining speed.

Rick did nothing wrong to earn this dismissal. He made necessary changes to GM. The company now has world-class products. The company is leaner and meaner. The company is tougher and better prepared to succeed. The company knows its costs better than it has ever known them. There is no better and no more difficult time for GM than now.

And unfortunately, Rick Wagoner is the scapegoat.

But what this country desperately needs is a consumer who is willing to spend money again. It needs a consumer who is not worried about losing his or her job, about refilling the 401(k) bucket, about losing his or her home.

The country needs consumer confidence. Perhaps that is what this president aimed to telegraph with a message heard loud and clear.

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by VRM

Pontiac Aztek... born 2001- died 2005.

Any president and chief executive who allowed that thing (not to be confused with the VW Thing) to roam the streets needs to step down.

But a government hack will probably be far worse.

Steve

THe Aztek can make a train take a dirt road.THe problem is that no cars today are one mans vision(Shelby,DeLorean,Duntov).All cars are designed by committee.Wagoner is not the only one that needs to go.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

THe Aztek can make a train take a dirt road.THe problem is that no cars today are one mans vision(Shelby,DeLorean,Duntov).All cars are designed by committee.Wagoner is not the only one that needs to go.

Even back in the 60's they were not all one mans vision. Shelby had AC, Delorean had Iacocca, Duntov had Shinoda. Iacocca was an industrial engineer who ended up running the company. He knows how to build stuff, and the rest were engineers or designers.

Wagoner is an economics major. Cars are often a passionate purchase, and I just think an accountant is usually just going to take the passion right out of whatever the engineers and designers do. A lot of GMs head honchos have been engineers who worked their way up. The ones that weren't (like Harlow Curtice) allowed guys like Harley Earl to play a large role.

Yep, lots of others need to go as well - the UAW is a problem, but they are not the biggest one.

Steve

[Tom Kirkham]

Looks like the White House wants GM to declare bankruptcy.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123841609048669495.html

[Tom Kirkham]

Funny video on today's Obama Auto speech:

http://www.pjtv.com/video/PJTV_Daily...ngV9ez_O1jxzbs

[What'saCobra?]

Wagoner is a sacrifice. Henderson is not as sharp, but is next in line.

Wagoner was pushed out and left as requested, the move contingent on getting the further money. Just a side-show for the UAW and the public.

If one is not SURE if the government might not be worse in every measurable way, they should put $100 dollar bills under their pillow for the tooth fairy. For instance, despite our President's assurances that they do not wish to "run" the automobile companies, He has stated that He wants America be the first to produce an efficient and low CO2 vehicle for world markets. But, isn't He going to create complete mandates for Detroit, based on secret Presidential Finding letters?

Isn't that how HE is continuing the remandering operations with the CIA?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, He has also assured potential Government Motors buyers that they should not be worried about buying cars from a "bankrupted" GM, because the US government will stand behind their warranties! Just how much money did President Obama commit to make that statement? Who authorized that expenditure? Who is in charge? Who's oxen will be AlGored?

Wagoner is a window-dressing sacrifice to get the UAW to listen and accept a somewhat more reasonable offer. Pelosi refuses to accept the UAW failure, if a legal bankrupcy is allowed. This is a 60 day attempt to get the UAW to blink. Based on the last 80 years of union history, like PATCO, they will not blink; so the President will muddle through with lots more money, wasted energy, wasted time and wasted authority.

My suggestion: full bankrupcy and reorganize. Soon, 7 days, unless the UAW capitulates. That is what Margaret Thatcher had to do to the coal mines and Reagan had to do to PATCO. Anything else is simply more costly agony.

Imagine, by the way, being on Chrysler's merger team and hearing that you have only 30 days to sell out to FIAT, another essentially government-controlled company. Not a set of pre-conditions that bode well for Chrysler.

According to Wiki:
"On 20 January 2009, Fiat S.p.A. and Chrysler LLC announced that they are going to form a global alliance. Under the terms of the agreement, Fiat takes a 35% stake in Chrysler and gains access to its North American dealer network in exchange for providing Chrysler with the platform to build smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles in the US and reciprocal access to Fiat's global distribution network.[23][24]
As of March 29, 2009, President Barack Obama has forced Chrysler to form an alliance with FIAT in 30 days as part of his gov't plan.
The new equity holder would have the option of increasing that to as much as 55%. Fiat, the stronger of the two, wouldn't immediately put cash into Chrysler. Instead it would obtain its stake mainly in exchange for covering the cost of retooling a Chrysler plant to produce one or more Fiat models to be sold in the U.S. Fiat would also provide engine and transmission technology to help Chrysler introduce new, fuel-efficient small cars.
The deal is the latest maneuver by Fiat's chief, Sergio Marchionne, who has pulled the Italian company back from the brink of collapse since taking over in 2004. The partnership would provide each company with economies of scale and geographical reach at a time when both are struggling to compete with larger and more global rivals like Toyota Motor Corp., Volkswagen AG and the alliance of Renault SA and Nissan Motor Co.[23]"

Having FIAT help Chrysler build a small "American" car, is like asking Colin Chapman to engineer solutions to the DeLorean automobile. You can bet that at least one seriously wrong thing will be "salted" into the design to ensure its complete market failure. (DeLorean ended-up a rear-engined Tatra, without the excellence.) Colin must have laughed at John-Boy and Jolly Old England all the way to his grave.

But, no one at Chrysler will be laughing when they are skinned-alive by the Italians, with His permission.

President Obama is presiding over the largest loss of American capital and equities since WWII, but deliberately taking from the rich and giving to the black poor.

For lack of a better word, i call it reparations plus grande in flagrante.

But, of course it is only my opinion and i am not on the inside.

FORD, however, remains the only excellent US company left, for about another 9 months. i hope FORD can stay aloof of He Who will be in command. Not forever likely, though. Still, when all these little tiny pseudo-cars are built by Chrysler and Government Motors, FORD will only slightly downsize to American-sized hybrids of advanced design and keep that nitch forever.

Somebody has to pull the horse-trailers, sailplanes, boats, campers, feed, stock, bales, etc.

[Tom Kirkham]

From Fox News:

March 31st, 2009 7:03 AM

Hey Obama Administration: What About Ford?

by Eric Bolling
2 Comments »

* Share:
o ShareThis

Drastic times call for drastic measures.

With billions of TARP dollars being tossed to GM, interim CEO Fritz Henderson today said that they need to change big and change fast. My guess is that they will cut brands and "lines" (models within the brand). I would recommend that they keep Cadillac and Chevrolet and let the rest go to the junkyard in the sky. Bye, see ya later, alligator, sayonara... You cannot compete with so many different makes and models. The bailed-out auto maker should focus its marketing dollars and design talent toward the two relatively successful brands already within GM domestic.

Chrysler is majority owned by Cerberus Capital, a hedge fund. It still infuriates me that a hedge fund is the ultimate beneficiary of my tax dollars. Cerberus, for those who have forgotten, bought Chrysler in a move of financial bravado. They overpaid massively, but justified it by claiming Chrysler was an American brand that would thrive. Thrive it did not -- and now our tax dollars are bailing out a hedge-fund bet gone bad.

What has been lost in all this? The fate of the one U.S. car manufacturer that has done things right: Ford. With billions of dollars of free money being thrown at GM and Chrysler, Ford has been placed at a competitive disadvantage. While Ford is still paying high fees to service its debt the old fashion way, its major competitors GM and Chrysler are receiving free cash to shore up their businesses.

Think of it as a neighborhood where homeowner Ford is making its high-rate mortgage payments on time while you and me are paying for neighbors GM’s and Chrysler’s mortgages. Ridiculous, isn't it?

Where are you, Obama administration? Why aren't you pointing out that Ford is doing things right? Why aren't you arranging deals for Ford internationally?

I am doing this, will you join me to promote Ford as the one U.S. auto that is actually doing things right ...

[1ntCobra]

Tom,

If I was Ford, I would not want any of the government money as the government would try to interfere with them.

The money going to GM and Chrysler is supposed to be a loan, not a free handout.

Ford perhaps lucked out with timing to get their loans refinanced prior to the financial meltdown. It seems that GM and Chrysler were not as lucky with their timing. With the banks not wanting to (or perhaps incapable) of refinancing GM's or Chrysler's debt after the financial meltdown, that leaves GM and Chrysler running to the government for finance. This is exactly the same situation that killed Circuit City, no bank would refinance their existing debt, no buyer to save them, they went into liquidation.

You have a similar situation with people not buying cars. The drastic cutdown in car purchases is not just people worried about the recession. There are people going to dealers just thinking they are going to finance or lease their next new car, just like they do every 4 years or so, and finding out that they can't get the financing any more.

I was watching to that pjtv video above and how the one guy was saying that he liked old school GM cars, but if GM was not selling what the consumer wanted, they should perhaps go down. But the big 3 were selling what the public wanted, big gas guzzling SUVs, and they were making a nice profit on them. The fickle public doing a 180 degree turn on what they want, and the public also finding out that the banks aren't lending money to buy new cars is the problem. GM was the number one auto maker until Toyota just nudged them out recently. Now you have the government talking like the people running these companies were idiots. Nobody plans for such a large reduction in sales. Nobody plans that the banks are not going to refinance their debt when the time comes. Blame the banks for this mess. And be glad that Ford does not have to deal with the government to survive the financial mess going on now.

[What'saCobra?]

Well, it is not exactly that FORD is doing things correct. They did have not such an awful year, but they started with lots and lots of cash, which is depleting.

Mostly, the FORD family does not wish to destroy their family heirloom. FORD is an old company that still has preferred shares, like the New York Times, that have special voting rights that allow the family to maintain effective control of the firm.

They likely cannot accept government money without losing those special shares and their control. FORD, if it becomes necessary, might file for protection without reorganization, if needed and they MIGHT be able to maintain control. But, they will be very unpopular if they do and succeed keeping control. So, they are just biding time and letting the market restructure, while setting alternative plans into detailed modeling games for the various likely and unlikely scenarios. Must be fun for the professionals to work on such structural, financial, legal and marketing issues.

The tricky thing to do would be to drop the UAW work rules and awful legacy costs, but keep family control. That will need lots of money, which means sell something big...

With luck and smart timing, their line of medium to modest size hybrids might carry them through this eco-terrorist storm. They are quiet as church mice at the moment, aren't they?

[cobra bill]

Why is it everyone is so willing to hang the UAW out to dry on this one like it's their fault, it's OK that the bankers get there bonuses, because they have a contract, well union workers have a contract as well.
The CEO's of Toyota make 20x what the worker makes, in GM and Chrysler and ford they make 300X what the worker on the floor makes, so you tell me who is really over paid! if we could have universal healthcare, it would be enough to level the playing field, Toyota gets Tax incentive, free infrastructure and all sorts of deals to get them to bring their plants in to the country, how is that a level playing field, there's more to it than just the UAW who over the last 5 years has made many concessions.

[1ntCobra]

Universal Healthcare will help? Aren't the big 3 paying billions into trust funds for UAW healthcare. Those funds will be under control of the UAW, not the big 3, in order to get that liability off of the books of the big 3 . I wonder what the UAW would do with that money if they suddenly did not need to use it to pay for healthcare anymore? I bet the UAW would love universal healthcare.

Originally Posted by cobra bill

Why is it everyone is so willing to hang the UAW out to dry on this one like it's their fault, it's OK that the bankers get there bonuses, because they have a contract, well union workers have a contract as well.
The CEO's of Toyota make 20x what the worker makes, in GM and Chrysler and ford they make 300X what the worker on the floor makes, so you tell me who is really over paid! if we could have universal healthcare, it would be enough to level the playing field, Toyota gets Tax incentive, free infrastructure and all sorts of deals to get them to bring their plants in to the country, how is that a level playing field, there's more to it than just the UAW who over the last 5 years has made many concessions.

[cobra bill]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Universal Healthcare will help? Aren't the big 3 paying billions into trust funds for UAW healthcare. Those funds will be under control of the UAW, not the big 3, in order to get that liability off of the books of the big 3 . I wonder what the UAW would do with that money if they suddenly did not need to use it to pay for healthcare anymore? I bet the UAW would love universal healthcare.

Well that's a good question, I would think it would belong the company and should be returned at that point.

[What'saCobra?]

Ref from 5.8.2007: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...705080373/1148
"... The Ford family today is a sprawling clan anchored by the 13 great-grandchildren of Henry Ford. Many family members don't live in Michigan and have never worked at the auto company.
They are intricately tied, however, by the 70 million shares of so-called "Class B" Ford Motor stock that they collectively own -- shares that have a combined voting power of 40 percent of all outstanding Ford Motor stock.
Those shares have always been voted in unison, and the family is famous in corporate circles for standing together through any crisis. But with Ford Motor struggling amid falling sales and record losses, the vast wealth of the family is under unprecedented attack...."

------------------------
Ref: http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...090324?sp=true
Lifting the Lid-Ford family in focus as car crisis deepens
Tue Mar 24, 2009
* Ford family control of automaker faces challenge again
* Proponents see Ford family as stabilizing influence
* Ford only Detroit automaker to shun bailout to date
By David Bailey

DETROIT, March 24 (Reuters) - Out of the Big Three remains the Big One.

Ford Motor Co (F.N) -- needing no U.S. bailout of the kind that has kept its Detroit rivals afloat -- remains the last independent American car company. That makes its founding family one of the last surviving dynasties of its kind.

It also adds an unexpected twist to a long-running debate over governance and control at Ford: Has the Ford family been good for investors, or just lucky?

The question is expected to go before shareholders again in May at Ford's annual meeting, in a nonbinding vote on whether to abolish the separate class of shares the family has used to control the automaker since it went public in 1956.

But Ford can point to its relative success in escaping the worst of the brutal downturn to bolster its long-held case that family control offers stability in a volatile industry.

"They have a very significant interest in the company," said Paul Lapides, director of the corporate governance center at Kennesaw State University. "Their wealth is very much in the company and it demands they pay a lot of attention."

Ford family members' Class B shares control 40 percent of the vote with just 3 percent of the stock.

FAMILY CONTROL A HINDRANCE?

Ford shareholders -- watching the stock lose 93 percent of its value in the last decade -- have pressed for change, saying the family influence may have led to the hiring of industry outsider Alan Mulally as chief executive officer, but did not prevent costly misdirections in the past decade.

"Unfortunately, they spent all this money over the last decade on Jaguar and Land Rover," said John Chevedden, a dissident shareholder in the campaign to end the family stock structure. "In part that is why they are where they are today."

"The family had influence during all of those years," he said in a telephone interview.

Chevedden supports an annual and largely symbolic challenge to the family voting structure that is expected to be on the agenda for the company's annual meeting this year as well.

"Dual-class stock companies like Ford take shareholder money but do not let shareholders have an equal voice," the proposed resolution states. "Without a voice, shareholders cannot hold management accountable."

The resolution took 27 percent of the vote in 2008, down slightly from 2007.

Family members have suffered along with other shareholders, losing their dividend and watching the value of Class B shares fall to $206 million from $2.4 billion a decade ago. They met with investment bankers two years ago, but held their shares.

"The Ford family has shown through its actions that the success of the company for the benefit of all shareholders has been the primary purpose of their involvement," Ford spokesman Mark Truby said.

OR LONG-TERM ASSET?

Ford has so far shunned the emergency government loans that have kept General Motors Corp (GM.N) and Chrysler LLC in operation. Ford's rivals have received $17.4 billion and seek up to $22 billion more.

That has allowed Ford investors to skirt the pain of government oversight. GM shareholders, by contrast, could be wiped out as new stock is issued to pay off creditors under terms dictated by the government.

Still, Ford shareholders face the risk of heavy dilution as it funds up to half of its $13.1 billion obligation to a healthcare trust for union retirees in stock, and issues equity to buy back debt.

Barclays Capital analyst Brian Johnson estimates the share count could more than double, rising to about 5.6 billion, from 2.3 billion with trust-related issuance through 2018.

Johnson said he remains negative on Ford equity though, with reduced sales and increased cash burn potentially leading to a Ford request for government aid.

Former Ford President Jim Padilla sees the family as a long-term steadying influence for the automaker.

"I have always felt that the active participation in the ownership structure with the Ford family has been a benefit," Padilla said in an interview. "I think there is a greater commitment to the company, to the community to the employees."

"I think it will continue to be so long as they can keep the structure they have today. And that is going to require that they remain independent, in my view," Padilla said.

Analysts generally see Ford management as headed in the right direction under Mulally with a wave of upcoming smaller vehicles after losses of $30 billion over three years.

"Ford has all the elements of a successful turnaround: compelling new products; strong leadership; and significant cost-cutting opportunities," UBS analyst Colin Langan said in a note to clients.

Executive Chairman Bill Ford gave Mulally his seat at the head of the company in 2006 after taking heat for a bad bet on European luxury brands and deep problems in the United States.

Lapides, who holds some Ford stock, believes the automaker is on the right track in large part because of Mulally.

"Did they make a better decision than the other companies because of the family?" he asked. "I think people can argue that, but I think they just really just made a good decision and things worked out. I don't think this is family magic here."
(Reporting by David Bailey; editing by Richard Chang)
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A more detailed explanation of the Class B shares and details is found here:
http://www.fordforums.com/f349/how-f...control-39452/

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Finally, for a very detailed and excellent article in the Detroit News last November 2008 about the FORD family's control and the family's huge personal losses to date, see this:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...11260382&imw=Y