Give me a break...

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

...



Don't where you got your data CDC, but some of it seems true. I find it hard to believe that actual labor costs are anywhere near $75/hr. More like $28/hr and about $10/hr benefits. It would be nice to see an accurate breakdown of it. I think oft quoted health care costs are overblown for one thing. Somebody in the upper tiers makes their insurance buddies a sweetheart deal for a cut of the "premiums" action. No way should a corporation pay more insurance per capita than an individual would.

Check out this link to a club post:
Now here is a surprise.... . I don't know where Cobrabill got the info. In Cobrabill's post it quotes UAW President Ron Gettelfinger as saying that UAW labor makes up 8 to 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle. This isn't much.

Something is cockeyed here. If labor gets $75/hr then the corporation theoretically gets $750/hr for each employee. That is much.
So lets use 10% for labor. If UAW works for half price or 50%, it would only lower per vehicle cost 5 percent, or $5 per $100. If whoever is raking in the other 90% gives up only 10%, it would lower vehicle cost by 9%, lowering per vehicle cost by $9 per $100. Nearly twice the price break. Granted some of the 90% is legit overhead ...but not the majority of it.

I don't think 10% labor cost is high. I think 90% other costs are outrageous, and apparently so does UAW. What a shame. I don't think we should lower UAW labor wages. We should strive to bring all other working class wages up to their level whenever market permits, even if we have to give the 90 percenters a "lower". Fair is fair.

Same as the typical American worker? It should be.

Running out of time here. Somebody has to work, eh?

Wes


...

Could have sworn somebody suggesting you read the contract.

You're throwing your opinions out that everyone is inflating figures, and then you ask everyone for the source of their info.

Where's yours?

Why do you believe the union President's figure of 10%? What's his source?

Move everyone else up to UAW numbers? Typical union mindset...which is why membership has decreased by 60% in major industries and why this country has lost manufacturing jobs to other countries.

And unions will continue to play that song as the ship sinks like the quartet on the Titanic.

[Jamo]

Bravo to the Senate Republicans. Complete and utter kool-aide intoxicated BS to cry for the UAW...

Have any of you apologists for the auto workers actually read their contract? I have...read every damn one of them for the past several decades when they are negotiated since they may set the tone for contracts throughout the country.

But they don't...know why? Because the UAW member is NOT the typical American worker. He or she is overpaid for few skills in performing work now involving robots...they are paid for what they used to do. They b!tch and moan every damn time management tries to make something more efficient, and they cry when workers from other mfgs consistently outperform them. They use political pressure to get their contract terms, rather than deserving them. Their leaders are overpaid, and they haven't won a significant organizing drive in the auto industry in 30 years.

The typical American worker works for small to medium size companies. They use their skills to achieve their gains in their career, rather than by simply hanging around long enough to get seniority. They wonder why their taxes should be used to help out the azzholes who supposedly have a union to protect them.

The "cuts" you brag about? Read the damn language!!! They installed a two-tiered system a couple of years ago wherein only new employees coming in are paid less in wages and benefits...the seniority folks actually got signing bonuses to sell out the newbies. Since they can't be laid off without receiving 80-90% of their pay, the seniority folks lose nothing whether they work or not, and the newbies haven't even come on line.

Do you people ever read?

Damn right they ought to commit to doing something NOW to keep THEIR jobs with our tax dollars being tied up to finance them. Why don't we use their pension plans as security?

Damn tired of opinions from biased liberals who have never read what they opine about. Completely and utterly incredible without any mitigating circumstances due from worthless emotional appeals. (Iraq?...geez Wes, you sound like an Illinois politician claiming moral right while grabbing the phone to sell America down the road. )

We may start moderating based on a BS scale. No worries...we're supposed to be politically correct enough to allow even those on the lower steps of evolutionary brain development speak their minds, with all favorable presumptions implied.

Rant in holding pattern.

[FST HSKR]

Jamo.


Chill out.

[Dan40]

B3 bailout is not about money. It is not about the economy, It is not about keeping American auto mfgs. It is POLITICS pure, plain and simple. The UAW has millions of registered voters in its membership. That is the only thing the politicians are looking at. Take away that voting block and they wouldn't talk to the B3 for 30 seconds.

Occam's razor

Dan

[J. T. Toad]

Jamo.

Heat up.



IMHO, this dog and pony show eventually will implode....

how does a company ask for a handout as it expanded 9K jobs in Camacari Brazil with a plant of grandiose 1.2 billion price tag?

http://www.automotivedigest.com/view...ticlesID=22935

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189



it just doesn't add up.

[Jamo]

Excuse me, but you obviously don't spend much time here and realize the give and take between folks in ongoing discussions, or at the very least...you have not engaged in the discussions.

So...coming on here without that background and telling me to chill out? Not well taken. I would suggest you chill out...for one full day.

Fair? Probably not...sue me.

[Jamo]

In the final analysis...well said.

Come on, Wes...bring it.

[nevermind65]

Wow...I guess I'm different than everybody on here. I didn't buy a GM, Ford, or Chrysler for the last 20 years because they were mostly ugly P.O.S. with some serious quality issues and I didn't want some oversized SUV. It had nothing to do with some guy on the assembly line who really has no say in any of these matters and who is supposedly making too much money.

Here I though my reason was why the automakers were in such financial troubles.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by nevermind65

Wow...I guess I'm different than everybody on here. I didn't buy a GM, Ford, or Chrysler for the last 20 years because they were mostly ugly P.O.S. with some serious quality issues and I didn't want some oversized SUV. It had nothing to do with some guy on the assembly line who really has no say in any of these matters and who is supposedly making too much money.

Here I though my reason was why the automakers were in such financial troubles.

I own a 2500 HD Diesel (that I have towed 16,000 pounds with, try that with a Jap POS), a Jeep wrangler (6 years old and nothing has broken), a 1983 Dodge D150 work truck (still going strong), a 1949 Cady (also still going strong), and a 1997 Harley Davidson (not an American car, but still an American product). All of the above vehicles have been great. I think a lot of people think of a mid 70's quality vehicle when they think of American, but most of the new vehicles are very good.

[nevermind65]

Hey...good for you! Let's see...my girlfriends 2007 Impala (10k miles)has been back to the dealer twice for warped rotors. A fellow worker has had new rotors put on his 2007 Chrysler 300 at 13k miles, and another co-worker has had brakes replaced on his 2008 Ford Edge at 17k.

Hmmm...my Toyota RAV 4 just had front brakes replaced at 90k for the first time. BTW...I'm trading it in on a Ford Fusion AWD because they are practically giving it to me.

Originally Posted by SP01715

I own a 2500 HD Diesel (that I have towed 16,000 pounds with, try that with a Jap POS), a Jeep wrangler (6 years old and nothing has broken), a 1983 Dodge D150 work truck (still going strong), a 1949 Cady (also still going strong), and a 1997 Harley Davidson (not an American car, but still an American product). All of the above vehicles have been great. I think a lot of people think of a mid 70's quality vehicle when they think of American, but most of the new vehicles are very good.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by nevermind65

Hey...good for you! Let's see...my girlfriends 2007 Impala (10k miles)has been back to the dealer twice for warped rotors. A fellow worker has had new rotors put on his 2007 Chrysler 300 at 13k miles, and another co-worker has had brakes replaced on his 2008 Ford Edge at 17k.

Hmmm...my Toyota RAV 4 just had front brakes replaced at 90k for the first time. BTW...I'm trading it in on a Ford Fusion AWD because they are practically giving it to me.

I think you will be happier seeing how the Rav4 is a chick car. J/K

BTW, My wrangler has 90k on it and nothing more than routine maintenance. I beat the crap out of it off road and it has been rock solid even pulling 33's with a 4 1/2" lift. Best car I have ever owned...

[427 S/O]

Much toxic waste in Parma?.

[mdmull]

Gettelfinger today, in listing some of the "givebacks" actually said that one of them was allowing non UAW cleaning crews to sweep up!!!!!. It's not only the cost of labor per hour, but the work rules. On journalist that has reported on the auto industry for 20 years showed a copy of the "master contract" - OVER 100 PAGES.

[J. T. Toad]

here is a laughable (which doesn't mean funny) quote off of UAW

http://www.uaw.org/auto/12_02_08auto1.cfm

"The $73 an hour figure is outdated and inaccurate. It includes not only the costs of health care, pensions, and other compensation for current workers, but also the costs of the pensions and health care benefits of retired employees spread out over the active workers. Active workers never receive any of this compensation in any form, so it is not accurate to describe it as part of their "earnings.""

IOW, linguistically and logically, $73 is what they are making so that they can cover the ponzi scheme retirement plan or rather "non-active worker". So it probably is more like 80-90 an hour.

http://www.heritage.org/research/economy/wm2135.cfm

This reminds me of the evangelist Benny Hinn (start emotional screaming preacher enthusiasm here)who..... hmmmm. by thee GRACE of gaw-duh, he takes nuttin', not a diemmmah, from the churchhhha! Onleee thee ministry to providuh by your donations.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1471...-tv-evangelist

"The evangelist is presented as having an opulent lifestyle that included a $3 million home with his wife and children, staying in five star hotels and a leased personal jet.

Hinn said the ministry paid nothing for his home or car and reported that his income is from his salary, which he noted is between US$500,000 and US$1 million annually, and from the sale of book royalties."


I digress.

[Jamo]

Wes

Damn your stubburn intellect! What do I make? I do ok...I charge a piece-rate by the word when I read it...double if I write it. I belong to a union...the BAR Association.

[PANAVIA]

on the KFC link, the jokes just keep on rolling.

KFC has fatty breasts and thighs.
hormone injected young chickens.
all their chicks are euthanize-able.

[Don]

Source: Detroit Free Press:

Comparison of automakers' labor costs:

ASSOCIATED PRESS • DECEMBER 12, 2008
Hourly wages and labor costs at factories owned by the Detroit Three came under scrutiny this week when senators questioned whether the struggling trio's union contracts make them uncompetitive with foreign automakers that have U.S. factories.

Automaker, Hourly wages, Total costs
General Motors Corp.
$29.78
$69

Ford Motor Co.
$29.00
$71

Chrysler LLC
$30.00
$74

Toyota Motor Corp.
$30.00-x
$48

Nissan Motor Co.
$25.00-x
NA

Honda Motor Co.
$27.62-x
$47

x-Nissan and Toyota hourly wage rates do not include profit sharing. Honda includes profit sharing but not attendance bonus. Toyota figure is at older factories with older work forces.

Source: Automakers, Center for Automotive Research. Figures can vary by factory.


http://www.freep.com/article/2008121...ESS01/81212117

[SPF2245]

Being a tax paying citizen of this country, I do not want one cent of my money and don't want a legacy debt for my children to pay because of bad management, poor contracts and the general unwillingness of the B3 to correct their mistakes (too many to list in one rant). As for the UAW, screw them, they're ship is sinking and rather then try and help fix the problem...they just want someone else to keep their boat afloat (read the US tax payer). Sorry, your business failed, join the millions of other poorly run businesses that have also got flushed with no one crying for handouts but attacked the problem with fresh ideas. They're not completely to blame for the problems facing the B3, but their lack of help in cutting the costs and long history of causing business headaches for companies should lead to the UAW demise. There is my rant.

[turnpike boy]

It would seem that the biggest problem the Big 3 have, is an absence of a product the majority want to buy.

Can't pay for much of anything without an income. Also leads to going broke.

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

It would seem that the biggest problem the Big 3 have, is an absence of a product the majority want to buy.

Can't pay for much of anything without an income. Also leads to going broke.

+1

All the argument about the internal plumbing and who makes how much doesn't matter. What matters is what turnpike boy said and one other point - In addition to making a lot of what people don't want to buy these guys loose money while the the other manufacturers don't. After selling essentially the same number of cars as Toyota during the same time window, GM succeeded in loosing $35MM while Toyota made $17MM! Ahem!

Who knows loosing money might even be associated with building stuff no one wants (ya think!). Bottom line is most Americans don't care why, we just want them to fix the result - don't really care how they do it as long as it's not with our tax dollars. If it takes BK, then hot damn lets git it on but lets also stop all the whining and sniveling. You made your current bed - now you got to sleep in it.

Make the next one better!

Ed

p.s. Attaboys to the Republicans who shot this turkey down.

p.p.s When you get in your car to go anywhere tomorrow check out the first ten cars you see and count how many are domestic. If you think ten is not enough count a bigger number. Now what's wrong with this picture?

edit was for spelling arghhh