I am pro choice...

[Buzz]

I absolutely think anytime a minor is raped whether she is impregnated or not, ANY attending physician, on pain of prosecution and loss of license, MUST report it and initiate action to find and apprehend the "father".
One way to keep the cost of elective abortions in the stratosphere would be to impose a very hefty tax on clinics that perform them with stiff fines and penalties imposed for non disclosure.

[DocDirk]

Wow, the posts are flying fast and furious! With or without religious convictions in the mix abortion is worth condemning from a societal point of view. We don't convict criminals unless we're 100% sure they're guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. But the argument is used that we don't know when a preborn child qualifies as a human with rights, and we do the OPPOSITE, we kill it without so much as a certainty that it doesn't.
At best that amounts to a case of criminal negligence.

There's a certain amount of schizoid thinking involved here too. In 35 of the 50 American states where abortion is available someone who kills the preborn child in the womb by attacking the pregnant woman is legally guilty of murder. (That law holds in Krazyfornica where I live, but has an exception for the willful performance of an abortion). Abortionists are getting around the horrors of partial birth abortion by injecting the child with a lethal dose of Digoxin, then delivering the dead body. An abortionist is being tried for murder in Florida because the child was inadvertently born alive and the mother noticed that fact before the doctor allowed the child to expire or facilitated its death.

Of course when we define personhood or human rights as available only to those who qualify by being in the right place or having certain intelligence levels or being capable of living independently as we do with the unborn child, we also legally begin the process of making the right to life subject to legal interpretation and revision. This eventually winds up including other humans in the mix. Retarded humans, those on diaysis, the elderly demented, handicapped people, etc. become potential "nonpersons". Ethicists around America have been saying for years that a one year old child doesn't compare with an adult as to personhood and human rights. So we see reports in Europe that over half the euthanasia cases reported in Holland are admittedly involuntary. In England Down's Syndrome patients have been left to die of starvation and neglect in health care facilities, EMT's have been recorded as allowing retarded individuals die on the scene of a heart attack rather than make the effort to resuscitate or prolong their lives. In Britain the ethical advisor to the National Health Service (appropriately named Lady Warlock) has called for the involuntary euthanizing of all 700,000+ demented elderly on the basis of saving the Health Service over 35 million pounds a year in expensive maintainance costs. (Their lives can't be worth living anyhow).

We abort children now on the basis of genetic imperfections, even gender, around the world. With the progress in genetic research it might not be long before the diagnosis of "below average intelligence" or "ugly" can be made in utero, with those preborn children being killed in order to obtain a more perfect society with more desirable individuals surviving. With the bean counters in control, how many people with family history of diseases such as diabetes or high cholesterol or rheumatoid arthritis will be reclassified as not elegible for the eventual Fertility Permit when it comes our time to apply for one in 2030? After all, individuals and couples shouldn't have the right to burden the rest of us with the cost of caring for such expensive diseases, should they? And I'm sure we can use the same justification now so popular .... that those prevented from bearing children will now not be bringing another human to a life of suffering that none of the rest of us would choose to live... never mind the infringements on freedom this now alive and evolving culture of eugenics will bring us.

I'm amazed more women aren't up in arms over the abortion industry's blatant policy of covering up child rape cases so that girls are taken advantage of, then returned to the abusive situation without safeguards or assistance in liberating them from it. How would you feel if your 13 year old daughter was bullied by a predator into getting an abortion without letting you know about the abuse? 84% of over 800 abortion clinics called with the problem of a 13 year old impregnated by an adult gave out advice on how to avoid the consequences for the malefactor and how to get the abortion anyhow without anyone knowing. Cases are now pending with parents suing Planned Parenthood for doing just that. The clinic worker who actually made the communication in the Indiana case was summarily fired. A few weeks later though, she is discovered to be working in a Boise, Idaho clinic, in charge of training and education of the clinic workers! Oh well, everyone will just look the other way they think...and they're RIGHT!

The science and research are in....abortion is associated with a manyfold increase in suicide, premature births, ectopic pregnancies, breast cancer, depression and child abuse .... the politically correct government funded CDC, NIH and other groups will deny these facts but 30 minutes in an honest websearch will show it to anyone interested in knowing. Look at the Finnish studies done on government data bases without recall bias and the facts speak for themselves. Even the University of Minnesota did a study showing a 10 fold increase in teen suicide for girls having had an abortion.

Well, most of us will just go one believing what we want to believe and resent anyone pointing out anything to the contrary.... seems to be the way of humanity. I don't hold out much hope for America or the rest of the world to wake up to what we're doing and heading for, it's too easy to just do the convenient, politically popular thing and let our grandchildren and great grandchildren try to sort out the mess (if they are allowed to be born) and if it's even possible by then.

[Tommy]

Originally Posted by DocDirk

Wow, the posts are flying fast and furious! With or without religious convictions in the mix abortion is worth condemning from a societal point of view. We don't convict criminals unless we're 100% sure they're guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. But the argument is used that we don't know when a preborn child qualifies as a human with rights, and we do the OPPOSITE, we kill it without so much as a certainty that it doesn't.
At best that amounts to a case of criminal negligence.

There's a certain amount of schizoid thinking involved here too. In 35 of the 50 American states where abortion is available someone who kills the preborn child in the womb by attacking the pregnant woman is legally guilty of murder. (That law holds in Krazyfornica where I live, but has an exception for the willful performance of an abortion). Abortionists are getting around the horrors of partial birth abortion by injecting the child with a lethal dose of Digoxin, then delivering the dead body. An abortionist is being tried for murder in Florida because the child was inadvertently born alive and the mother noticed that fact before the doctor allowed the child to expire or facilitated its death.

Of course when we define personhood or human rights as available only to those who qualify by being in the right place or having certain intelligence levels or being capable of living independently as we do with the unborn child, we also legally begin the process of making the right to life subject to legal interpretation and revision. This eventually winds up including other humans in the mix. Retarded humans, those on diaysis, the elderly demented, handicapped people, etc. become potential "nonpersons". Ethicists around America have been saying for years that a one year old child doesn't compare with an adult as to personhood and human rights. So we see reports in Europe that over half the euthanasia cases reported in Holland are admittedly involuntary. In England Down's Syndrome patients have been left to die of starvation and neglect in health care facilities, EMT's have been recorded as allowing retarded individuals die on the scene of a heart attack rather than make the effort to resuscitate or prolong their lives. In Britain the ethical advisor to the National Health Service (appropriately named Lady Warlock) has called for the involuntary euthanizing of all 700,000+ demented elderly on the basis of saving the Health Service over 35 million pounds a year in expensive maintainance costs. (Their lives can't be worth living anyhow).

We abort children now on the basis of genetic imperfections, even gender, around the world. With the progress in genetic research it might not be long before the diagnosis of "below average intelligence" or "ugly" can be made in utero, with those preborn children being killed in order to obtain a more perfect society with more desirable individuals surviving. With the bean counters in control, how many people with family history of diseases such as diabetes or high cholesterol or rheumatoid arthritis will be reclassified as not elegible for the eventual Fertility Permit when it comes our time to apply for one in 2030? After all, individuals and couples shouldn't have the right to burden the rest of us with the cost of caring for such expensive diseases, should they? And I'm sure we can use the same justification now so popular .... that those prevented from bearing children will now not be bringing another human to a life of suffering that none of the rest of us would choose to live... never mind the infringements on freedom this now alive and evolving culture of eugenics will bring us.

I'm amazed more women aren't up in arms over the abortion industry's blatant policy of covering up child rape cases so that girls are taken advantage of, then returned to the abusive situation without safeguards or assistance in liberating them from it. How would you feel if your 13 year old daughter was bullied by a predator into getting an abortion without letting you know about the abuse? 84% of over 800 abortion clinics called with the problem of a 13 year old impregnated by an adult gave out advice on how to avoid the consequences for the malefactor and how to get the abortion anyhow without anyone knowing. Cases are now pending with parents suing Planned Parenthood for doing just that. The clinic worker who actually made the communication in the Indiana case was summarily fired. A few weeks later though, she is discovered to be working in a Boise, Idaho clinic, in charge of training and education of the clinic workers! Oh well, everyone will just look the other way they think...and they're RIGHT!

The science and research are in....abortion is associated with a manyfold increase in suicide, premature births, ectopic pregnancies, breast cancer, depression and child abuse .... the politically correct government funded CDC, NIH and other groups will deny these facts but 30 minutes in an honest websearch will show it to anyone interested in knowing. Look at the Finnish studies done on government data bases without recall bias and the facts speak for themselves. Even the University of Minnesota did a study showing a 10 fold increase in teen suicide for girls having had an abortion.

Well, most of us will just go one believing what we want to believe and resent anyone pointing out anything to the contrary.... seems to be the way of humanity. I don't hold out much hope for America or the rest of the world to wake up to what we're doing and heading for, it's too easy to just do the convenient, politically popular thing and let our grandchildren and great grandchildren try to sort out the mess (if they are allowed to be born) and if it's even possible by then.

After your opening paragraph, I thought you might be giving a well reasoned position opposing legal abortion based on something other than religious beliefs. But after reading the paragraph highlighted in red, I conclude that you are searching for objective reasons to justify the religion based beliefs you already hold. You dismissed the CDC and the NIH as biased by pointing out that somewhere on the web someone has written something that contradicts the research done by these organizations. Given the vast amount of misinformation on the web, finding something that you or I agree with doesn't confirm our positiions. And as far as the tenfold increase in suicide by females who have had an abortion, even if the statistics are correct, that doesn't mean there is a causal relation betweeen the two facts. There is a correlation between men who wear large shoes and men with large feet, but that doesn't mean wearing large shoes will make your feet large.

My point in replying is to say that your well written and obviously heart felt comments sound more like religious beliefs presented so as to sound objective than actual objective arguments regarding the societal pros and cons of legal abortion. So, which came first, your opinions about abortion or the rationale you use to support your opinions?