Hey Bernie, Is this true?

[Clois Harlan]

A Little Gun History Lesson

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.PAN>

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Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

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China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Guatemala established gun control in 1964.. >From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

ze=5>------------------------------

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

It will never happen here? I bet the Aussies said that too!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has change d drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind him of this history lesson.

With Guns.............We Are 'Citizens'.

Clois

[Jamo]

How the hell would he know? He's not Armenian.

[richardferguson]

Clois
Australia remains a far safer place to live than the USA with respect to gun crime. I'll bet before this year is through another handful of crazies will have shot up some university, school or office in your country. And I'll bet your respose will be that it could be avoided if everyone was armed. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
By the way, I think your historical synopsis is phukin sh!t.
Richard

[LoBelly]

G'day Clois

The purpose of the gun control measures was not to remove firearms but to limit the availibility of automatic and semi-automatic weapons (they can still be had but only when specially approved - for example if you have a severe feral animal problem) to avoid mass shooting events.

Up until the controls were put in place there was at least one mass shooting event in Australia every year - they have since stopped. I think that most citizens here think that the trade off was worth it.

BTW - In the state of Victoria (my state) I think its true to say that most shootings are conducted by the police - if not its close.

regards
LoBelly

[avanti-176]

Originally Posted by richardferguson

Clois
Australia remains a far safer place to live than the USA with respect to gun crime. I'll bet before this year is through another handful of crazies will have shot up some university, school or office in your country. And I'll bet your respose will be that it could be avoided if everyone was armed. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
By the way, I think your historical synopsis is phukin sh!t.
Richard

I would submit that the level of safety in Austrailia as opposed to the USA has more to do with these numbers.....

Australian population 21.5 million ..............Australia total area 2,967,893 sq mi

United States popuation 306 million...........United States total area 3,794,066 sq mi

might not have anything to do with it,but I am just sayin'.......

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by richardferguson

Clois
Australia remains a far safer place to live than the USA with respect to gun crime. I'll bet before this year is through another handful of crazies will have shot up some university, school or office in your country. And I'll bet your response will be that it could be avoided if everyone was armed. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
By the way, I think your historical synopsis is puking sh!t.
Richard

I must say your historical synopsis is not as cordial or intelligent, but in the absence of those two qualities, senseless ranting is a good substitute.

[boxhead]

Well I for one as an Australian would much rather live in this country I call home instead of America.
As stated by Richard, the gun control laws in Australia have been a good thing, I am one of the people who handed in my gun. I could have kept it as I was a member of a gun club and it was kept in a gun safe, but I chose not to.
I just wonder now that America is going down the **** tube financially, with all those honest law abiding citizens loosing there income, just how many will look at that gun they keep in there bed side draw (honestly officer it is only to protect myself) will decide that robbing the local petrol station is one way they will put food on the table.
This is an Australian law that I believe a vast majority of Australians would agree with.
You keep your laws in America just the way you like it (and keep burying your children because they went to school today)

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by boxhead

Well I for one as an Australian would much rather live in this country I call home instead of America.
As stated by Richard, the gun control laws in Australia have been a good thing, I am one of the people who handed in my gun. I could have kept it as I was a member of a gun club and it was kept in a gun safe, but I chose not to.
I just wonder now that America is going down the **** tube financially, with all those honest law abiding citizens loosing there income, just how many will look at that gun they keep in there bed side draw (honestly officer it is only to protect myself) will decide that robbing the local petrol station is one way they will put food on the table.
This is an Australian law that I believe a vast majority of Australians would agree with.
You keep your laws in America just the way you like it (and keep burying your children because they went to school today)

My another verbal attack,you Aussies do rant, I can see why they don't want you to have guns.

[Merv and Sharon]

Having lived in both countries, I think that the easy availability of guns in the US is a major problem and one that many Americans also recognize. Certainly the new White House administration seems to have that view. However, one cannot turn the clock back. In this country we still had the chance to do something positive on the issue and thankfully it was done.

The statistical data on Australia that is presented above is completely at odds with recent data available from the Australian Institute of Criminology and other reputable sources. To connect mass killings and genocide with lack of access to firearms is tenuous at best. Overall I don't see how this is a Cobra Forum issue. There are more things we share in relation to our cars, than this issue which has little potential for engendering goodwill.

Merv

Merv

[boxhead]

Originally Posted by RAZOR

My another verbal attack,you Aussies do rant, I can see why they don't want you to have guns.

Sorry Razor, not a verbal attack, mearly stating a fact.

After all it is Clois who has attacked the Australian way of living by claiming that Australia is an unsafe place to live.

I am sure on a per head capita there are more gun related robberies, more gun related injuries and more gun related deaths in the good old USA than in Australia.
And that would be simply due to the fact that there are more guns available.

Take the guns away and the chances of one being used is far less.

Now I know your going to say that "The bad guys will not hand there guns in" yes this is a fact, but by removing the guns that are not in the bad guys hands lessens the chance of them getting another one or more guns.

Now you will say that robberies will go up because Joe Citizen can not defend himself.
Isnt it better to get robbed than shot because you tried to defend yourself?

[Chrome]

Why does this CRAP need to be on the COBRA FORUM?

THIS THREAD SHOULD BE REMOVED!!!

[Rebel1]

I totally agree with the other Aussies comments, gun control is definitely a good thing.

In fact I'd like to see hand guns removed from the hips of most of our police personnel and restricted only to "special teams".

Especially in Victoria.

[boxhead]

Yes I agree, remove this thread all together

[Philm]

This this not approriate.

get rid of it!!!!!!!!

Phil

[Aussie Mike]

I'm an Australian gun owner. I've been shooting for about 25 years.

Back in the 1996 a fellow named Martin Bryant killed 35 people and injured another 21. He went on a shooting spree in Port Arthur, Tasmania. I believe this incident still rates as one of the worlds largest mass shootings in recent years.

Tasmania had about the laxest gun laws in the country at the time and it was fairly easy to source a semi automatic center fire rifle that Bryant used so effectively. The rest of the county had already pretty much banned these firearms without a special permit. A move that I agree with to a certain extent since an AK47 or an M16 is pretty much an overkill for hunting.

After Bryant's rampage at Port Arthur there was a public outcry and shouts about banning guns. This was beat up by the press to great effect. Especially when they put a bunch of red neck pro gun people in front of the cameras who also happened to have a load of dodgy nationalist political views as well. The end result was that most regular folks thought us shooters were a bunch nut cases if these people are representative.

The government decided despite mass protests from shooters to tighten up the laws and make them uniform for the whole country. This meant a ban on all semi automatic fire arms and pump action shot guns. They then instigated a buy back program where you had to hand in your fire arm and were financially compensated.

I handed in a Pump action shot gun and 2x semi auto .22 rim fires. The pump gun was great for duck shooting, general rabbit hunting and the odd go at trap shooting. The .22 rifles were great rabbit rifles.

I never replaced the shotgun as to get a reasonable Under Over 12 gage was about $2K at the time and they only gave me $500 for my old shotgun.

It was sad to see guys handing in old browning semi auto shot guns that their grand fathers had owned and handed down. Knowing that later these heirlooms would be crushed and destroyed, the small financial compensation doesn't cover it.

It was a sad time for me and many other responsible shooters as the image of our sport was irrecoverably damaged. Even when our shooters are winning golds at the Olympic games 2 months after Port Arthur and the Commonwealth games 2 years later The media reports are awkward and uncomfortable. The Australian public still thinking we were all gun toting crazies.

I'm was a keen competition target shooter and in the years since I've seen so many target clubs fold and disappear. Many of these are clubs had been in operation for more than 100 years. Lack of new shooters coming through and loss of safety zones behind rifle ranges has seen the sport dwindle.

A fire arm was never an option for home defense in this country. The laws even before Port Arthur were pretty strict on that front. The storage requirements for fire arms and ammunition have always been strict. Having your gun in a locked gun safe with the ammunition in another locked box meant that running to grab your rifle was not a quick and easy thing to do and shooting an invader in your home could be construed as premeditated. Better to keep a cricket bat under the bed or a 9 iron in the wardrobe.

So all the honest responsible shooters handed in their firearms but we still have gun related homicides. I think this is because the type of people who commit gun related homicides are not the type to have a legally registered fire arm let alone hand it in when asked.

I don't worry about those people though since they spend most of their time shooting each other.

For more info on Port Arthur have a read of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Ar...cre_(Australia)

There's also some good info on the history of gun laws in Australia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia

Cheers

[boxhead]

Very good point Mike.

I was not saying to destroy all guns as there are many people who have firearms as a hobby, and even more that require them to keep properties clear.
What I disagree with on this overall debate is that Australia is worse off for bringing these laws in to place.
And to suggest that a similar law in USA would make things even worse than they currently are is a very one eyed view on things.
To have a loaded gun in a draw or to carry it in your pocket is not responsable action that any sane person would think is OK (in my opinion)

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by Chrome

Why does this CRAP need to be on the COBRA FORUM?

THIS THREAD SHOULD BE REMOVED!!!

First gun control, now free speech, are you guys sure your not from France? Just a joke, I will admit most women in this country agree with you.

[Jamo]

Moved to the Lounge with a redirect in the Aussie area in case anyone from Down Under wants to continue the discussion...

[boxhead]

Sounds like the majority of Woman in the states are smarter than some of the guys.

[Aussie Mike]

Even as a shooter I don't see a need for military style semi auto weapons to be in the hands of regular Joe Public. They may be interesting to enthusiasts I guess and they can be entertaining to shoot (I've had a go with quite a few i.e AK47, M16, SLR, SKS and even a machine gun or two). It's no great loss to me as they are crap for hunting. If you can't hit something with one shot then you shouldn't be out there so having 25 rounds in the mag is a waste.

Again hand guns been very strictly controlled for a long time. We don't have the option for Joe public to carry a hand gun and the only way to get a permit to carry is if you work in security or police etc. Some big hoops to jump through there.

Personally I don't like hand guns. They can be entertaining but ethically they are not for me. A hand gun is only designed to shoot people. A rifle or a shot gun has a purpose outside of armed conflict. A pistol is harder to justify away from that function.

I think Australia has always had a different attitude towards firearms. Our nation wasn't born out of armed conflict. We just don't have the militia attitude. Our county was forged with shovel and pick and pen and paper. It kind of shows through in our national motto of "No Worries".

We don't worry much about invasion by another country. The closest we came was Japan attacking Darwin in WW2. any invader is probably more likely to be met with a Beer and a sausage than a rifle. If thay mannage to battle their way through most of our hostile country to get to us the'll probably need a refreshing beverage.

Cheers