Next up: U.S. mortgage rescue plan

[Bobcat]

Hey Freddie .... agree on the tax issue .... but you might want to Goggle FairTax.org and let me know what you think .
Looks like reading "Atlas Shrugged" needs to be mandatory .... it shows a way out of this mess/coming train wreck .... and the parallels to today are scary .
I heard today that Mayor Bloomberg in NYC opposed raising taxes on the high producers/income people . Probably more self serving than concern for them as I think he is afraid they will leave NYC and then where would he be ? But he did say that 50% of all NYC taxes are paid by 1% of the taxpayers . Here is a perfect chance to implement a little scorched earth policy on our part ... those people should leave NYC , let the city self destruct .... and become a shining beacon to how well Socialism works .
Boy am I thankful I have zero debt and own my home !!

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by VRM

Well, when are you going to take responsibility for the candidate you had in office for the last 8 years who managed to double the national debt? Lets just double your taxes to cover it. Learn to take responsibility for your actions.

Bush [a closet Democrat] did double the National Debt in 8 years and I, an Independent, did vote for him both times. So I take my share of the responsibility. Some responsibility must go on those who put up Gore and Kerry too. Bush was bad, but the easy best choice over those dummies!

And if doubling the debt in 8 years is bad, AND IT IS! How is doubling it again in half that time GOOD???? And at the present rate, we will easily double the debt in less than 4 years.
Admitting Bush was bad or kidding oneself that he wasn't, is not any kind of a prediction of the new guy. And so far he looks like a brain damaged Jimmy Carter. Or worse, an eloquent Pelosi PUPPET!

Dan

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Dan40

Bush [a closet Democrat] did double the National Debt in 8 years and I, an Independent, did vote for him both times. So I take my share of the responsibility. Some responsibility must go on those who put up Gore and Kerry too. Bush was bad, but the easy best choice over those dummies!

And if doubling the debt in 8 years is bad, AND IT IS! How is doubling it again in half that time GOOD???? And at the present rate, we will easily double the debt in less than 4 years.
Admitting Bush was bad or kidding oneself that he wasn't, is not any kind of a prediction of the new guy. And so far he looks like a brain damaged Jimmy Carter. Or worse, an eloquent Pelosi PUPPET!

Dan

Dan,
I actually think that Kerry and Gore would have caused us less harm than Bush, though in specific areas I give Bush credit for doing the right thing (right after 9-11 for example) that I doubt Gore or Kerry would have. I think Kerry would have been very indecisive, but doing nothing may be better than making the wrong decision almost all the time like the Bush administration did. There is no way to prove or disprove any of this. Watch, though - I will be called names for even saying it.

I did not vote for Obama, and I disagree strongly with the majority of items in this spending bill. Obama is doing the wrong thing - McCain would have done the wrong thing also, but his wrong thing would be a different wrong thing that would have us end up in just as much debt (or more as the numbers indicate that the GOP borrows and spends).

We, as a country, need to wake up and realise that neither party is what we think it is or want it to be. And we need to start voting accordingly.

Steve

[Ron61]

Steve,

I am afraid that "We as a country" are no longer relevant. These people will have it so they can't be removed from office except by force within a year or so. Letting us vote is just a way of keeping to many people with the power to actually get rid of some of these fools now from doing it.

Ron

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Ron61

removed from office except by force

Fine by me...

I need a Rambo smiley.

[Fred Douglass]

"....the banks may have to be nationalized, but THAT SHOULD JUST BE TEMPORARY....."

TEMPORARY? Hoohahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha! Temporary? OMG! Now THAT guy's got a sense of humor!

Heeeeeeeeeeere we go, gang!

I betcha that NOT ONE of these magical and miraculous provisions of the First Thirty Days of the Messiah will ever be undone or reversed. (Remember those ACORN voters are reproducing like rabbits!).

This (like our cars) is going to be one amazing ride!

Carrion,

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by VRM

Dan,
I actually think that Kerry and Gore would have caused us less harm than Bush, though in specific areas I give Bush credit for doing the right thing (right after 9-11 for example) that I doubt Gore or Kerry would have. I think Kerry would have been very indecisive, but doing nothing may be better than making the wrong decision almost all the time like the Bush administration did. There is no way to prove or disprove any of this. Watch, though - I will be called names for even saying it.

I did not vote for Obama, and I disagree strongly with the majority of items in this spending bill. Obama is doing the wrong thing - McCain would have done the wrong thing also, but his wrong thing would be a different wrong thing that would have us end up in just as much debt (or more as the numbers indicate that the GOP borrows and spends).

We, as a country, need to wake up and realise that neither party is what we think it is or want it to be. And we need to start voting accordingly.

Steve

I agree that doing nothing would be better than the "Stimulus Plan."
Pain IS going to be felt in this economic downturn. No plan would allow the pain to be felt by those who thought they were beating the system. Instead of by us paying for their corruption.
I think Gore and/or Kerry would have been much worse than Bush. Just as Obama is going to be.
I agree McCain would have made wrong moves too, any politicians available today would.

I think McCain 'took' one for the Party. I think the GOP KNEW they had NO chance after Bush and McCain's career is in twilight, so he was the 'lamb' sent to slaughter. I think the GOP was surprised it wasn't Hillary that got the nod but they had made their bed by then.

Dan

[cobra de capell]

[mdmull]

I'm looking for the phone logs containing the calls from the republicans to the idiots that bought a home that they couldn't afford. They must exist, the idiots couldn't be that stupid on their own. If this keeps up, the financially responsible among us will stop paying taxes. If say 10 million people withheld their taxes, what would the IRS do?

[bomelia]

From TechCentralStation (yeah, I know Steve, a very suspect site)

How Republics Die:
Plato's Cautionary Tale


By Mark J. Boone : BIO| 06 Feb 2009


Insofar as an economic downturn has traceable causes, the present recession seems to have origins in the behavior of at least three groups of people: reckless lenders, who encouraged people to spend their money irresponsibly; reckless borrowers, who took their advice and spent well outside the limits of need and the ability to repay; and a government which at times encouraged such behavior through organizations such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

This is old news to the astute observer and the regular reader of TCS. What they may not know is how vividly, and how long ago, great philosophers warned us just how dangerously our society was using money. The great philosophers understood that economics operates on a moral plane, indeed a spiritual plane; that economic problems are often moral problems; and that financial markets are corrupted as much by bad behavior as by bad economic theory. The antiquity of their advice only serves to belie its strikingly acute contemporary relevance.

Read along from an excerpt of Plato's Republic (Book VIII, 550d-566), and see if any of it sounds familiar. It's the tragic tale of a declining republic, a tale of war, money, and politics all gone wrong through a combination of bad judgment and disordered cravings. We begin with moneylenders who have a nasty habit of lending money to people they know will use it irresponsibly, especially to youths whom they encourage to fritter it away on useless luxuries. They prefer that their money be wasted on frivolities; the more of it is wasted today, the more they can charge in interest tomorrow.

But their clients are just as bad, if not worse. By spending others' money on frivolities, they fail to take responsibility for themselves. A group of people recklessly spending other people's money soon becomes a leech on society: a class of those who have ruined themselves burning through borrowed money.

The class of bitter, bankrupt borrowers finds it has a friend—or what looks and talks like a friend—in a group of politicians who promises them honey, served in a silver bowl at the expense of the moneylenders who got them into trouble in the first place. Their alliance only lasts until one of the honey-tongued politicians stirs up the bankrupted class, whips them into a frenzied mob, and makes war against the wealthy class, seizing their money by force. This politician emerges as a tyrant, and the old republic has died.

Republic is a complex and profound morality tale in which we can see, if darkly, the reflection of our own republic. Its story is not exactly ours, but we have a lot in common with this once-beautiful city. Specifically, we have the same moneylenders and borrowers. The eeriest similarity to Plato's moneylenders is the agressive marketing of credit cards to college students. However, the reckless use of home loans on the part of both lender and borrower has proven more devastating.

We have been blessedly spared from the final stage of the societal destruction portrayed in Republic, wherein a redistribution of wealth proceeds by way of a violent coup to tyranny. The American republic is stable enough that for the foreseeable future we need not fear such madness.

But the same disease can also kill a republic slowly. Cicero, the great Roman statesman and philosopher who was also a great reader of Plato, warns that redistributing wealth by taking it from lenders and giving it to borrowers is among the worst things a leader can do because it wreaks havoc on a credit system (On Duties, Book II, chapters 83-85). This in turn can cripple an economy and lead to the same awful result: the death of the republic. Since credit is a function of the credibility a borrower has in the eyes of a lender, nothing can damage it more than if lenders expect to be repaid with their own taxes. While we can be grateful we haven't seen more of this, we should keep a hawk's eye on the new Congress for any signs of this sort of redistribution.

After all, we would only be deceiving ourselves if we thought that our republic by virtue of its size, technology, hefty GDP, or anything else is somehow immune to what destroyed other republics. Human nature destroyed ancient republics, and it could destroy ours.

[cobra de capell]

Here's a sample of different scenarios that shows the impact of this proposal at the house owner level....

http://www.treas.gov/initiatives/ees...ampleSheet.pdf

[cobra bill]

Your still thinking about me, and that's special!

[cobra de capell]

Funny and right on the money. When I first viewed it, you and Cobra Bill (and Excaliber) came to mind, plus a few others - but the three of you are stand outs, big time.

[cobra bill]

Its good to be loved!

[Sharroll Celby]

They dont call it the "Bush Recession/Depression" for nothing.

[TButtrick]

I'd just seen a recent episode of CSi... GWB is of reptilian decent. True...

[SPF2245]

VRM, regarding the national debt...it's not the total number of dollars of the debt which is the issue, it's the % of the debt vs the GDP which is the true measure of comparision. And let's not forget the $5 trillion Bush had been blessed with when he took office. Either way, this was a long time in the making...and both parties are equally at fault.

As for the sub-prime lending mess that got us into this mess, I laughed working at a small bank in 1993 when this whole mess got started (I have to admit, I did profit well from it). This coupled with Clinton's re-write of the The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 with special low credit scores previsions for who would normally not be able to qualify for a loan opened a flood gate of idiots into the housing market with no means to pay for food...let alone a house. And it all spun out of control...both parties at fault (though some more then others), and the American public fueled it with hedge bets on future property values. Oh well, now let's throw more money at it and see what happens...

[cobra de capell]

A letter to BO from a real person.....

Dear President Obama:


I want to tell you a story about myself and my neighbor. I have 4 kids, all in private school, that my wife and I have to pay tuition of $4500 per child while my taxes pay for my neighbor's 1 child to go to school for free. But its ok, that was our choice.


Every morning as I pile all 4 kids in the van to drive them to school, I see my neighbor standing on his lawn as the free school bus-that my taxes pay for- comes to pick up his child. But its ok, that was our choice.


When we bought our home, I paid a "point" to get my loans rate down to 5% fixed for 30 years. My neighbor decided to go with one of those "intro rate" loans that, at the beginning , was a rate lower than what I was paying and he did not have to pay the point. But its ok, that was my choice.


He lost his job back in early November of 2008, just after buying a new $10,000 boat. As Christmas came, he told me he was not really looking for work anymore because he wanted to "enjoy the holidays". While my wife and I bought a great xbox game console for $50 for our kids, my neighbor told us they just got the new $399 xbox 360 to go with their Wii and latest Nintendo. Again, not complaining, its our choice. Just seems odd someone out of work would choose to spend money that way.


I asked again (early February) how the job hunt was going and he told me that his unemployment had been extended for a year so he is going to wait until the end of the summer to look for work as he wants to spend time on the new boat. Apparently its pretty easy to fill out the jobless claim forms on the internet to continue to get the benefits. (Doesn't anyone verify that people who get unemployment checks are truly seeking work?)Might not be ok, but that was his choice.


Having 4 kids can be quite expensive, but making the right choices isn't too hard. You would be amazed at the great clothes you can find at the thrift shop. Other Moms ask us how we can afford so many "Limited Too" outfits for the girls-they can't believe how much you can save by staying out of the malls. Now as for boats, we have a great one-a 1979 pontoon boat we picked up for only $1200 (my 2 brothers pitched in on it so it was $400 each). It may not be the prettiest or fastest thing on the water but we have a lot of fun on it. Not complaining, again it was our choice. Just pointing out that people make choices in life, ours was to make sure we could afford our lifestyle.


What I am concerned about is that I have learned about your plan that will take money away from me-a taxpayer-to lower my neighbors interest rate to 5.16 percent. He paid no point for his original loan...he paid an interest lower than me at the start of his intro rate loan...but now I have to pay to help him stay in his waterfront home??? Mr. President, thats not ok, and its not my choice.


I keep hearing how people are not able to afford to stay in their homes when their rates increase, but does that really make them "homeless"?

Here is an analogy that makes my point. Imagine someone getting financing on a Ferrari sportscar that was set up so their introductory payment was only $500 per month. Now when the payment jumps up to a number that person can no longer afford and the car is repossessed-is he considered "car-less"? Of course not! He has already demonstrated he can afford $500 per month in payments-he just needs to buy a car he can afford.


The same should go for people, like my neighbor, who can't afford to live in their house anymore. Buy a smaller home or...GASP...rent! Sell the boat! Quit going away on trips! Cancel the 2 cell phones, the cable, and ...GASP...THE INTERNET!

Its all about choices, I made mine, my neighbor made his. I already pay for mine, please don't make me pay for his.

[427 S/O]

Freddie, found out why........

--the UK is apparently claiming Obama has snubbed them by replacing the Churchill bust in the White House with one of Abraham Lincoln. Kevin Curwin weighs in:

Yet, President Obama may have deeper reasons for replacing the bust besides making room for good old Abe.

It was under Churchill's leadership that Britain suppressed Kenya's Mau Mau rebellion.

One of the Kenyans allegedly tortured by the remaining colonial regime was Hussein Onyango Obama.

That's right, the President's grandfather.

http://media.www.buchtelite.com/media/storage/paper1203

[cobra de capell]

I have - Rush is the best. That's one thing that the liberal talking heads cannot seem to do - be humorous, of course, that takes talent as well.