10 Cars That Sank Detroit

[Jamo]

That there was damn funny...love those Hitler spoofs.

[jbuchert]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Not arguing just disagreeing. I haven't seen anything from GM that is world class except the Corvette and they have priced that out of the regular consumers price range. And if Ford is so terrible, why is it that GM is crying for more bail out money and Ford never took any? I agree that Ford has lagged in quality for some time, but their sales are better and their quality is just about on a par with GM now.

You have every right to disagree.

I think Ford has a trend lately of trying to revamp current or aged platforms with face lifts where GM has near completely redesigned there line up from the ground up.

In my profession I have to tear these cars appart and piece them back together everyday. I have repaired, rebuilt or restored just about every make/model out there inside and out. From unitized construction to full framed vehicles/trucks I have seen/experienced far more than most of you have when it comes to there construction.

[95CobraR]

Originally Posted by jbuchert

I think Ford has a trend lately of trying to revamp current or aged platforms with face lifts where GM has near completely redesigned there line up from the ground up.

Why has Ford refused government money while GM (and Chrysler) has had to take government money?

How did GM manage to lose $82B in the last four years? Why are they talking about GM's bankruptcy?

General Motors Corp.'s strategy for a quick trip through bankruptcy court is likely to spark legal challenges from bondholders worried about getting steamrolled.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123957652811811897.html

I don't read about Ford planning a quick trip through bankruptcy.

[Commodore]

Perception is one of the huge issues Detroit fumbled. The Euro cars cost more, spent more time and money on what then seemed like frivolous details but in doing so separated their products from the ordinary 'Joe Blow' cars coming out of Detroit. They had a certain exclusivity. They nurtured the, 'We have something you don't', mentality and stayed the course. The Asian products on the other hand offered much of the same but at bargain prices. They managed to capitalize on, 'We're different, reliable and practical at the same time'. Detroit was much to slow and perhaps arrogant to embrace either of those mentalities. Detroit couldn't understand that raising or lowering a fin, popping on a vinyl top with opera windows or other 'upscale' goodies would keep their one time loyal customers returning for variations on the same theme. Detroit forgot how to lead and is now paying the price. That and corporate greed landed them where they are today. The big three can design and build cars as well if not better than any automotive company in the world but only if management gives their engineers and assemblers a fair chance. Catching up can be painfully slow. I hope they all succeed.

[bart]

Originally Posted by 95CobraR

Why has Ford refused government money while GM (and Chrysler) has had to take government money?

I'm a bit of a smart arse, and I wanted to share a pretty cool (imo) picture that answers that question

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by 95CobraR

Why has Ford refused government money while GM (and Chrysler) has had to take government money?

The Ford family would get payed nothing if they recieved government help because all their income comes from stock dividends. I think that is the main reason they are not accepting money.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by SP01715

The Ford family would get payed nothing if they recieved government help because all their income comes from stock dividends. I think that is the main reason they are not accepting money.

The real reason is that Ford was lucky enough to refinance their short term debt PRIOR to the current financial mess with the banks. GM and Chrysler were unlucky enough to have to refinance their short term debt after the banks became unable to make NEW loans due to their toxic assets. Since GM and Chrysler cannot get the banks to refinance their short term debt, they are asking the government to LOAN them money (which is different than asking for a handout). Then you get politician involved with GM and Chrysler..., which is why Ford is lucky they timed their refinancing when they did.

Notice that I said the GM and Chysler are asking for LOANS from the government. Are the banks asking for LOANS? No. The banks want to get rid of their toxic assets, which is what the government originally said they would buy. Hmm, maybe I could sell the contents of my septic tank to the government instead of paying someone to empty it every few years... But is the government buying the toxic assets, or are they buying up shares in the banks and forcing mergers instead?

[SP01715]

Here is a link to story from the Detroit News. I have heard this same thing from several sources, so I think there is definitely something to it.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkk0qCO...382/1148/rss25

Here is part of the article.

But Ford Motor Co. has even more reason than the rest to resist. A Chapter 11 filing would put the Ford family on par with other shareholders, stripping its Class B shares of the super-voting power that gives the family control of the company.

Even if Congress approves a bailout, the proposed legislation would require companies that take federal dollars to forgo using the money to pay dividends to investors. Ford Motor Co. suspended its dividend payments two years ago, but restoring them is a priority for many members of the Ford family who had come to rely on dividends for income. That may be why Ford has suggested that it would hold off on taking any federal aid until the automaker really needs it.

"We were asking essentially for a line of credit to draw upon if needed," Executive Chairman Bill Ford Jr. told National Public Radio on Tuesday. "We hope that we never need to use it."

The family's control of Ford has long been the subject of controversy among shareholders. Now, tensions are said to be rising within the family as the company's stock -- and the personal fortunes that depend on it -- dwindles to its lowest value in decades.

Ford is in a stronger financial position than General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC, but just barely. And while CEO Alan Mulally says his company does not need a federal bailout to survive, Ford is joining its Detroit rivals in asking for financial assistance from Washington.

Ford executives have said publicly that bankruptcy is not an option. The company has enough cash to stay out of bankruptcy court at least until 2010, when the full benefits of its new contract with the United Auto Workers kick in -- though a GM bankruptcy could force Ford to follow suit.

But the numbers have never been bleaker for the Ford family. It now controls the Dearborn automaker through its ownership of less than $118 million in stock. Few want to pick a public fight with the Fords, but many Wall Street analysts say this makes their continuing control of the Dearborn automaker hard to justify because it is such a small percentage of the company's total value of nearly $4 billion.

"It's a stretch," said one analyst, who did not wish to be identified. "It's going to get hard and harder to justify."

[95CobraR]

Originally Posted by SP01715

The Ford family would get payed nothing if they recieved government help because all their income comes from stock dividends. I think that is the main reason they are not accepting money.

Ford Motor Company (F) does not pay a stock dividend.

GM may soon have a new CEO: B. H. Obama.

The U.S. government is considering swapping some of the $13.4 billion it lent General Motors Corp. for ownership in a stripped-down version of the auto maker, a move it hopes will push the United Auto Workers union and bondholders to accept similar concessions, said people familiar with the matter.

Interim GM Chairman Kent Kresa said the company would welcome the government's willingness to let it pay off some of the loans with stock. "Certainly that would be helpful," he said in an interview Tuesday.

I am sure Pelosi, Waxman, and Reid would certainly have their company drop all of those gas hogs: Corvette, Camaro, and the G8. They would be replaced with cute little cars that have a 1.0L engine and can reach speeds up to 70 mph.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123972054506117179.html

But Ford Motor Co. has even more reason than the rest to resist. A Chapter 11 filing would put the Ford family on par with other shareholders, stripping its Class B shares of the super-voting power that gives the family control of the company.

Any trip into bankruptcy usually wipes out all stockholders. Stockholders are last in line at the bankruptcy court. They can not file a proof of claim (like a bondholder) as the can only file of proof of interest. Here:

An equity security holder is a holder of an equity security of the debtor. Examples of an equity security are a share in a corporation, an interest of a limited partner in a limited partnership, or a right to purchase, sell, or subscribe to a share, security, or interest of a share in a corporation or an interest in a limited partnership. 11 U.S.C. § 101(16), (17). An equity security holder may vote on the plan of reorganization and may file a proof of interest, rather than a proof of claim. A proof of interest is deemed filed for any interest that appears in the debtor's schedules, unless it is scheduled as disputed, contingent, or unliquidated. 11 U.S.C. § 1111. An equity security holder whose interest is not scheduled or scheduled as disputed, contingent, or unliquidated must file a proof of interest in order to be treated as a creditor for purposes of voting on the plan and distribution under it. Fed. R. Bankr. P. 3003(c)(2). A properly filed proof of interest supersedes any scheduling of that interest. Fed. R. Bankr. P. 3003(c)(4). Generally, most of the provisions that apply to proofs of claim, as discussed above, are also applicable to proofs of interest.

You may notice that Ford's market cap is $9.75B while GM's market cap is $1.1B.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by 95CobraR

Ford Motor Company (F) does not pay a stock dividend.

They did until a couple years ago, and the members of the Ford family whose sole source of income were coming from those dividends wants them back.

"Even if Congress approves a bailout, the proposed legislation would require companies that take federal dollars to forgo using the money to pay dividends to investors. Ford Motor Co. suspended its dividend payments two years ago, but restoring them is a priority for many members of the Ford family who had come to rely on dividends for income. That may be why Ford has suggested that it would hold off on taking any federal aid until the automaker really needs it."

[95CobraR]

Originally Posted by SP01715

They did until a couple years ago, and the members of the Ford family whose sole source of income were coming from those dividends wants them back.

The Ford family, like any reasonable person, diversified their wealth many years ago.

I am sure that the deletion of the dividend may have caused them to cut back on their living expenses, but I doubt you'll see them standing around a welfare office at any future time.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by 95CobraR

The Ford family, like any reasonable person, diversified their wealth many years ago.

I am sure that the deletion of the dividend may have caused them to cut back on their living expenses, but I doubt you'll see them standing around a welfare office at any future time.

Well, you must have some inside info then. I have seen the above reported in print and on T.V. Not trying to start a fight, but what is being reported is that some in the Ford family relied heavily on stock dividends for income. I am sure they are far from poor, but they want their income back. If they take money from the government they can forget about it anytime soon.

[Ron61]

Originally Posted by SP01715

Well, you must have some inside info then. I have seen the above reported in print and on T.V. Not trying to start a fight, but what is being reported is that some in the Ford family relied heavily on stock dividends for income. I am sure they are far from poor, but they want their income back. If they take money from the government they can forget about it anytime soon.

Put yourself in the Ford Family's place. If you are making a good living and they are, would you be willing to give that up for the Govt. taking over and running everything into the ground where you will wind up in the welfare lines? I think this dam Govt. should stay out of all business as it was not formed for that and can't even run itself efficiently. And I am sure that if any inane Govt. Action caused you to lose some of your income you wouldn't mind at all.


Ron

[95CobraR]

Originally Posted by SP01715

Well, you must have some inside info then. I have seen the above reported in print and on T.V. Not trying to start a fight, but what is being reported is that some in the Ford family relied heavily on stock dividends for income. I am sure they are far from poor, but they want their income back. If they take money from the government they can forget about it anytime soon.

I have mentioned that government control of their company is not a good thing for Ford. It could be that a few members of the Ford family did not diversify their wealth and relied on only Ford dividend income. They screwed up if that is true.

Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne had warned that the Italian automaker would only agree to a partnership if Chrysler's Canadian and American unions align their costs with those of the Japanese and German competition, according to Canada's the Globe and Mail.

The Obama administration, which has already loaned billions of dollars to Chrysler and rival General Motors Corp. last month gave the automaker until the end of April to forge a partnership with Fiat or face bankruptcy.

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Stor...eed&siteid=WSJ

The WSJ is also reporting that Fiat's CEO will take over control of Chrysler. Obama fired Rick Wagoner and has placed his man at the top spot at GM. Ford is the lone standing American manufacturer who still has independent control.

Once Ford accepts government bailout funds, they are at the mercy of the federal government. The feds could force Ford to stop making performance cars and parts while arranging a shotgun wedding with Hyundai.

You'll be driving a Hyundai-Ford Accent that gets 35 mpg.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Put yourself in the Ford Family's place. If you are making a good living and they are, would you be willing to give that up for the Govt. taking over and running everything into the ground where you will wind up in the welfare lines? I think this dam Govt. should stay out of all business as it was not formed for that and can't even run itself efficiently. And I am sure that if any inane Govt. Action caused you to lose some of your income you wouldn't mind at all.


Ron

I agree, the government should not be in the business of bailing out companies. I was simply stating a fact I have heard reported from several sources as to one of the reasons they don't want government money.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by 95CobraR

I have mentioned that government control of their company is not a good thing for Ford. It could be that a few members of the Ford family did not diversify their wealth and relied on only Ford dividend income. They screwed up if that is true.


http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Stor...eed&siteid=WSJ

The WSJ is also reporting that Fiat's CEO will take over control of Chrysler. Obama fired Rick Wagoner and has placed his man at the top spot at GM. Ford is the lone standing American manufacturer who still has independent control.

Once Ford accepts government bailout funds, they are at the mercy of the federal government. The feds could force Ford to stop making performance cars and parts while arranging a shotgun wedding with Hyundai.

You'll be driving a Hyundai-Ford Accent that gets 35 mpg.

The government should stay out of it IMO. The market should dictate the type of cars they build, not the government.

[Ronbo]

It really isn't just Detroit. (or the US for that matter)

Most of our major corps took a bath "playing banker", problem with that is it's far too tempting for the maufacturing side to needle the financial side into lowering lending standards to keep sales up. Plus their idea of running to the real banking system if something happend blew up in their faces.

We now have a lot of Captain-less ships chugging along at 1/3 throttle because Obama can't stear them all. They'll run aground eventually. What's left of our manufacturing base that the Japanese couldn't destroy the banking industry and now the federal government will finish off.

Can you say "you want fries with that hamburger?", oh wait, the fry machine broke and we can't get parts from the national stock system.

It would be nice if the American citizen could help out his fellow countrymen by buying US products, but Wal-mart opted for the Chinese half cent cheaper light bulb. So there's not much left except, well, the hambuger.

Obama did say you can help by buying mecury-filled compact floresecent lamps (preferably the Chinese made ones at Wal-mart or Home Depot) so we can put a few coal workers in the soup line. The government will eventually build work camps for the coal workers to properly dipose of the mercury (and lead).

[Ron61]

I just saw in the news that Volkswagen may replace Toyota as the World's top car maker soon. Now don't knock the German cars. They are well made.

http://www.reuters.com/article/busin...e=businessNews

Ron

[95CobraR]

Originally Posted by Ron61

I just saw in the news that Volkswagen may replace Toyota as the World's top car maker soon.

Yea, but that volume is due to temporary government actions:

Volkswagen is benefiting from government stimulus plans for the car industry that have boosted demand in Germany, China and Brazil, its three biggest markets that together accounted for half of all group sales in the first quarter.

In Germany, deliveries of Volkswagen group brands rose 4.5 percent to about 251,500 vehicles during the quarter. More than 160,000 new orders were booked as owners collected generous subsidies to scrap old cars in exchange for purchasing new ones.

What happens when the the government stimulus program and the government scrap program ends?

Regardless, I'd never buy a Toyota or a VW.

[Ron61]

Hard to say, but what happens when our Govt. starts to run the car companies? I think Ford is doing the right thing to refuse Govt. help, ( Intervention ), if they can continue to do so. Hopefully at least one of the American car companies will come out of this mess in better shape and will be able to start growing again and competing with the rest of the world. I have never had anything but Fords but my family has owned Chevies and other American cars and I hope they survive and thrive.

Ron