Should anybody be charged with a crime for torture?

[Dan40]

Abu Ghraib was straight out and out prisoner abuse. No one was interrogating them. They were just mistreating them. It happens, we have bad people too. The soldiers involved WERE prosecuted. So its apples and oranges. Extracting information using waterboarding to SAVE AMERICAN LIVES is completely different from abuse for abuse sake.
Typical liberal misdirection.

Liberals hated Bush because he crushed the Constitution and spent like an idiot. Increasing the deficit 5 trillion in 8 years. But when king obama ignores the Constitution like it was a bothersome gnat and BLOWS over 4 trillion in 100 days, that's OK.

[427 S/O]

For the 3 or 4 here who are deeply worried about the health and well being of the known terrorist at Guantanamo Bay, I'm providing you with their email so you can send get well cards, love letters or what ever you think will make them feel better....


http://www.gtmo.net

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by 427 S/O

For the 3 or 4 here who are deeply worried about the health and well being of the known terrorist at Guantanamo Bay, I'm providing you with their email so you can send get well cards, love letters or what ever you think will make them feel better....


http://www.gtmo.net

I'd suggest delivering them in person to the families of the known terrorist, most of us will chip in for a one-way ticket, no return ticket will be necessary - have a nice trip. If you end up losing your head over this good will trip - it's probably because we waterboarded family members, just damn.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by 427 S/O

For the 3 or 4 here who are deeply worried about the health and well being of the known terrorist at Guantanamo Bay, I'm providing you with their email so you can send get well cards, love letters or what ever you think will make them feel better....


http://www.gtmo.net

I could really care less about terrorists. My concern is about following the laws, and not acting like some two-bit third world tin pot dictatorship.

[Excaliber]

Yup, that is an excellent point!

...apparently I miss spelled in a previous post, is it reich or right?

[Jamo]

BTW...we have new software. Three of you are going to internet hell.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Jamo

BTW...we have new software. Three of you are going to internet hell.

Really!?! Cool! Am I one of them? What if I'm an atheist and don't believe in Al Gore or hell?

[cobra de capell]

......in a handbasket?

[Scott S]

77 posts and none of you got it right including my wife's relative from Japan konnichiha...Tatsushige

Torture is short term pain to gain an advantage over someone in your control.

The poll should have include one more question.

Are taxes torture?

Would you be water boarded or accept losing a fingernail or two so that you would never have to pay taxes again?

Think about it....

Scott S

[Tatsushige]

Thanks guys for the welcome. Nice to be here.

OK down to business.

Two wrongs do not make a right, just because someone does it to your citizens do you have to lower yourself down to their level and behave the same?


The West including the UK and my Home Country Australia all claim they are better than others and we BEHAVE civilized in time of war, yet we seem to support the same barbaric actions that terrorist and the likes support, and torture is barbaric. There has been cases were people have been tortured and died yet they have had nothing to do with terrorism, example of this was the taxi driver in Afghanistan that had his legs broken and was beat to death.

Afghan prisoners were 'tortured to death' by American guards

Shocking and detailed accounts have emerged of how two Afghan prisoners were tortured to death by American interrogators and prison guards at Bagram air base, outside Kabul.

Shocking and detailed accounts have emerged of how two Afghan prisoners were tortured to death by American interrogators and prison guards at Bagram air base, outside Kabul.

A 2,000-page report on an internal investigation by the US military leaked to The New York Times and published yesterday provides exhaustive detail on how the two were kept chained in excruciating positions and kicked to death.

READ STORY HERE

An autopsy found that Dilawar died of heart failure caused by "blunt force injuries to the lower extremities". The coroner, Lieutenant-Colonel Elizabeth Rouse, told a pre-trial hearing that his legs "had basically been pulpified ... I've seen similar injuries in an individual run over by a bus."

Now the US was complaining a few months back about Iran training assassinations squads to enter Iraq and cause trouble, but the USA was doing the same in Pakistan training assassination squads to enter Iran to cause trouble.

How can we in the WEST say you CANNOT do this and that, and then we do what we tell others they cannot do?

Two Wrong do not make a RIGHT, and we in the West are hated because we try to FORCE our beliefs, ideas and cultures on to others, and trust me I see it here in Japan, when you have Aussies, Brits and Yanks all say that they do not need to learn Japanese because English is the world’s language and the Japanese should learn English, they abuse Japanese that do not understand English and when they do this it make others like myself that live here look just as uneducated and ARROGRANT as the Tourists that are abusive toward the Japanese.

OH and the most spoken language in Mandarin Chinese, just in case you were wondering.

I support WAR on the GROUND of HUMANITARIAN REASONS eg, Sudan and Burma needs to be sorted out, also North Korea needs to have their doors kicked in. But Afghanistan was only invaded because they refused to hand over Osama, Iraq was invaded so Bush Jr could finish what daddy started. Both have made the WEST more hated around the globe.








PS Sorry for any spelling mistakes, been in Japan for 6 years and do not use English much now days!

[Jamo]

Tatsushige

Obviously, you take media accounts from the NY Times (the taxi driver story) as gospel, so there is no hope in trying to articulate a different opinion that you would accept.

I take "two wrongs don't make a right" as being caught with one's pants down twice...we already were with the WTC, and quite honestly...I don't care what it takes with regard to folks outside the US to insure it does not happen again. I do find it somewhat unnerving to have our country criticized by a resident of a country (Japan) that sits back and allows us to protect their ass from North Korea.

Just my opinion, of course.

[Tatsushige]

Originally Posted by Jamo

I do find it somewhat unnerving to have our country criticized by a resident of a country (Japan) that sits back and allows us to protect their ass from North Korea.

Just my opinion, of course.

It was the US that provoked Japan in to attacking it in 1940's read the “Smoke Gun of Pearl Harbor”, a Declassified Doc in 1994 which showed the US public did not want to enter the war in Europe and the only way in was to get Japan to attack the US and claim it was a surprised attack. Now as Japan was a ally of Germany it would then mean the US could enter the war with Germany if the US was at war with Japan.

Now because of this provocation by the US and the war that followed and then the terrorist attacks on the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki the US forced Japan to create and sign Art 9 which states


"第九条　日本国民は、正義と秩序を基調とする国際平和を誠実に希求し、国権の発動たる戦争と、武力による 威嚇又は武力の行使は、国際紛争を解決する手段としては、永久にこれを放棄する。
二　前項の目的を達するため、陸海空軍その他の戦力は、これを保持しない。国の交戦権は、これを認めない。 "

Sorry cannot read Japanese well here in English

"ARTICLE 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes. In order to accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized."



Now because of this Japan has no means of protecting itself from future attack or invasion, which meant at a later date the Soviet could invade and take Japan as Soviets and Japan have never signed a end to the war, so the US wanted to protect is now new investment decided with the Japanese govt on the Japanese/US security Pack which states the US must Protect Japan from any and all attacks.

Now if Japan wipes out Art 9(which there is talk about here) that will mean it can rearm itself, which as you might already know Japan as the second most advance military(POLICE FORCE) in the world. It would also mean that all US military personal will be kicked out of Japan, all US bases closed in Japan and also means the US has no power the threaten Japan with sanctions when Japan refuses to do something the US wants it do to, Like the re-importation of BSE contaminated beef.

So it is more in the best interests of the US that Japan keeps Art 9 and also in the best interest that Japan is protected by the US.


But hey that is only my Opinion






NOTE : The Japanese Defense Force is not a Military it comes under the umbrella of the National Police Agency making it a DEPT of the POLICE!

And NO I am not US bashing, My sister is married to a American, my English speaking mates here in Japan are mostly Americans, just I do not agree with Torture of ANY HUMAN, ANIMAL or TERRORIST. If you must kill them then do it quick, bullet to the brain stem!



Anyway I think I will head back to the Aussie side of the Forum, just in case I upset someone with my views. Keep safe all and have fun.

[Excaliber]

Well that was an interesting (and disturbing) look into the mindset of a Japanese resident. I won't even begin to address how ridiculous it sounds as I think Jamo made that point all ready. That's some serious propraganda right there!

[Jamo]

Oinie

Me thinks I'll just let the gentleman's response speak for itself.

[Ron61]

It was the US that provoked Japan in to attacking it in 1940's read the “Smoke Gun of Pearl Harbor”, a Declassified Doc in 1994 which showed the US public did not want to enter the war in Europe and the only way in was to get Japan to attack the US and claim it was a surprised attack. Now as Japan was a ally of Germany it would then mean the US could enter the war with Germany if the US was at war with Japan.

If refusing to give Japan more steel and equipment to make bombs, guns, and ships is provoking them, then that is to bad. Japan wanted war and they wanted to conquer the whole hemisphere in Asia and China. Also you complain about torture. I never noticed anything in your statements about how the so called Imperial Japanese Army treated our people who they took prisoner. You want something to be happy about, just be happy that I was not president or Japan would be on the bottom of the ocean. I would have used it as an Atomic Testing ground. Best thing that could happen is Japan kicks us out and then takes on Korea on its own.

Ron

[427 S/O]

Tatsushige, you left out the part about the WTC being an 'inside' job.

[Tatsushige]

Originally Posted by 427 S/O

Tatsushige, you left out the part about the WTC being an 'inside' job.

Operation Northwoods ...Need I say more

[VRM]

Tatsushige,
I agree with you regarding visiting other countries and expecting them to speak English. I've been to 45-50 countries and ended up learning enough conversational bits of the native languages (thought I have some sort of mental block with Spanish) to be able to get around without using English. I also do not expect visitors to the US to speak English (though a few words helps), but I do expect US citizens to be reasonably fluent.

WW2 (specifically the Pacific theatre) and sports/GT cars of the 50s and 60s are two of my favourite history topics.
The ultimate act of attack was Japans decision. The US was obviously not happy with what Japan was doing in China and Indochina. Most Americans did not want to get involved in what was viewed as local problems in other parts of the world. Perhaps Hulls letter to japan was viewed as an ultimatum (it was by Tojo), but the ultimate decision to attack was Japans. Japan thought it could hit hard and fast (they did) and wipe out the Pacific fleet in one shot. What they did not realise was that even if they did manage to hit the carriers at Pearl they still would have been at the mercy of the US sub fleet. The Shinano (biggest carrier built during WW2) was sunk by a US sub before ever launching a single plane. And even with the US carriers surviving Pearl the US sub fleet sank more ship tonnage in the Pacific than all other types of attack. The US still would have won if the carriers were destroyed at Pearl - it just would have taken longer.

As for Operation Northwoods - there were plans for that, and I admit that it is possible, but I also think that it is extremely unlikely that anything like that could actually happen in these days of internet and cell phone cameras. And if you get caught doing something like that in your own country you would face a firing squad or mob justice.

Jamo,
We basically wrote the Japanese Constitution after the war. Maybe you should take it up with MacArthur.

Steve

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by Tatsushige

Operation Northwoods ...Need I say more

Tatsushige, you may want to make some purchases here.

Mike

[Jamo]

Steve...it's just fine, but it seems to me that if we are the ones guaranteeing their existence, we ought not hear nary a peep from that quarter.