Need help from knowledegable class III gun dealer

[misfit41]

I need advice from some one with experience on the therotic registration of an antique war relic machine gun which IS included on the curio and relic weapons list.
For instance if someone were to run across such a 60+ year old {classIII} weapon stored in a closet since the war in Korea .What would be the proper and legal steps taken to make it fun to show off to friends ?.
This is a therotical question only and I would appreciate KNOWLEDGEABLE input.
Thanks ,Tim

[DSM351]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm...Protection_Act

As debate for FOPA was in its final stages, Rep. William J. Hughes (D-N.J.) proposed an amendment to ban the civilian ownership or transfer of any fully-automatic weapon which was not registered by May 19, 1986. However, any such weapon manufactured and registered before the May 19 cutoff could still be legally owned and transferred by civilians.

So since it was unregistered back in 86, its really bad news.
Thank you New Jersey, again.

[lovehamr]

TK, you have a PM.

Steve

[Three Peaks]

Since it is a machine gun, it must be registered and the one time tax stamp and license must be paid through the BATF, I believe. You only need to do this once to possess a class III weapon, unless they have changed the rules in the last couple years.

Best to check with a knowledgable gun shop to get the correct paperwork, or go online to the BATF site and check the regulations which are available.

[RICK LAKE]

misfit41 I know you are trying to do the right thing. For right now, say nothing and show it to NO BODY until you can Find out about class 3 licenses. It should not to as hard as getting one in NJ. They have every year a show where you are allow legally to fire any weapon made even mini guns and 20 mm cannons. Goggle it. If you want to show it to a close friend, remove the firing pin or trigger assembly. We have a WW II vet doing 7 years, he's 87, for having all kinds of firearms in his house. He had a fire in the house and LUCKY that the ammo didnot start going off. He would have killed alot of people. He had 50 cal armor piercing rounds and generades, ( they where live ) The stuff was stored correctly that this saved lives. The Judge didn't like or care to hear anything else. He needed a class 3 license and never knew or applied. I live in one of the worst states for firearms. They are trying to limit rifles to under 50 cal. Pretty stupid when a 416 barentt with shoot 1.7 miles and hit the mark. Crooks can have all the guns they want, the Legal people have to fight to own or buy a gun for 1+ years. Not sure what the future holds in this country but have friends that are buying and burying guns and ammo in their back yards in plastic tubes. Rick L. Ps Tim is it a 30 cal with 20 round clip? Don't say the name.

[misfit41]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

misfit41 I know you are trying to do the right thing. For right now, say nothing and show it to NO BODY until you can Find out about class 3 licenses. It should not to as hard as getting one in NJ. They have every year a show where you are allow legally to fire any weapon made even mini guns and 20 mm cannons. Goggle it. If you want to show it to a close friend, remove the firing pin or trigger assembly. We have a WW II vet doing 7 years, he's 87, for having all kinds of firearms in his house. He had a fire in the house and LUCKY that the ammo didnot start going off. He would have killed alot of people. He had 50 cal armor piercing rounds and generades, ( they where live ) The stuff was stored correctly that this saved lives. The Judge didn't like or care to hear anything else. He needed a class 3 license and never knew or applied. I live in one of the worst states for firearms. They are trying to limit rifles to under 50 cal. Pretty stupid when a 416 barentt with shoot 1.7 miles and hit the mark. Crooks can have all the guns they want, the Legal people have to fight to own or buy a gun for 1+ years. Not sure what the future holds in this country but have friends that are buying and burying guns and ammo in their back yards in plastic tubes. Rick L. Ps Tim is it a 30 cal with 20 round clip? Don't say the name.

Thanks Rick,
At this point I'm not sure how to proceed but I for sure havent broken any laws up to this point. From the way I deciper the atf website an nfa registration should be possible but is a hard thing to start and I won't aquire the weapon until it is safe. FYI the therotical gun is a 30 cal with an ammo belt in a can. thanks Tk
ps, My buddy at the justice dept here on Ft. Knox says I will likely get a visit from a bunch of black surburbans already just from making the inquirys.
oh well,had to start somewhere ,T

[Ronbo]

Yep, two major changes in the laws:

Gun control act of '68 was the big one, however possession of "components" were still legal (somewhat) without license.

Then in '86 possession of any component was considered the same as having a un-licensed machine gun. The NRA published articles about Colt AR-15s that were assembled with one or more M-16 parts that a few people got nailed by the BATF over, I checked mine and sure enough there was one M-16 part in it (disconnecter). Needless to say I switched that out pronto.

Even legal transfers can be a big PIA if not impossible, depends on your local sheriff's stance on signing off on them. You also toss out your right to not be searched as the BATF has the right to enter hour home to preform "inspections" with no notice given. (and no warrant needed)

If it's not NFA-listed, stay away.

[misfit41]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

Yep, two major changes in the laws:

Gun control act of '68 was the big one, however possession of "components" were still legal (somewhat) without license.

Then in '86 possession of any component was considered the same as having a un-licensed machine gun. The NRA published articles about Colt AR-15s that were assembled with one or more M-16 parts that a few people got nailed by the BATF over, I checked mine and sure enough there was one M-16 part in it (disconnecter). Needless to say I switched that out pronto.

Even legal transfers can be a big PIA if not impossible, depends on your local sheriff's stance on signing off on them. You also toss out your right to not be searched as the BATF has the right to enter hour home to preform "inspections" with no notice given. (and no warrant needed)

If it's not NFA-listed, stay away.

I already have a federal tax stamp for a supressed 10/22 I built up a few years ago and your right,batf has the right to come anytime to see the aformentioned weapon which I really don't have a problem with. I also remember the new laws in 87 . I had several built up ar15/m16's that only needed drop in sears ,I was legal as long as the sear wasn't installed. When the law changed I broke them down and went back to stock selling the parts to a class 3 dealer.
The atf's curio and relic list gives amnesty to normally illegal guns which are on their list. My gun is there . I also personally know two people who have contacted the atf and were able to get guns not on the list added .I am not sure how the current state or our world has affected that .I also realize if I were to take possession of this gun it would be an offense. If I am lucky enough to learn it will work and do get the chance to own it I have a class 3 dealer who will pick it up store it while I do the application process.
I appreciate the input, I was hoping to hear from a dealer who has had experience with this issue.
thanks,Tk

[FWB]

Originally Posted by misfit41

I need advice from some one with experience on the therotic registration of an antique war relic machine gun which IS included on the curio and relic weapons list.
For instance if someone were to run across such a 60+ year old {classIII} weapon stored in a closet since the war in Korea .What would be the proper and legal steps taken to make it fun to show off to friends ?.
This is a therotical question only and I would appreciate KNOWLEDGEABLE input.
Thanks ,Tim

if its in a closet since korea, then the owner probably never took advantage of the two amnesty registration periods prior to the 1968 machine gun law. if it was never registered as a nfa weapon previously then it is now contraband
and good for twenty years in federal prison to posess it. to try to register it will get you in jail just by an inquiry to the atf. stay away and let the old timer deal with it.

[misfit41]

I appreciate the input , I don't posses the gun but would sure like to ,it is a great piece of history and would be a shame to see cut up.It is listed on the curio and relic list but the laws are very hard to decipher . Just trying to find an approiate direction to pursue it if possible. thanks again,Tim K

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by misfit41

I appreciate the input , I don't posses the gun but would sure like to ,it is a great piece of history and would be a shame to see cut up.It is listed on the curio and relic list but the laws are very hard to decipher . Just trying to find an approiate direction to pursue it if possible. thanks again,Tim K

As stated you need legal advice from somewhere other than here. In my experience and opinion, if its a .30 cal M1 Carbine from the Korean War era, its arguably not a great piece of history and certainly not worth going to jail over. These guns were made by everyone from Saginaw/GM to IBM. Their semi-automatic brothers are all over the gun shows for $500-$700 (in Texas at least.) They are to guns what Yugo was to the car. And a really fast Yugo....is still a Yugo. Its not worth the effort or money to get licensed to own it just to show it off. Now if it were an M14 or an AC223, well that would be a different story.

Just my opinion, not that you asked for it.

[trularin]

Misfit41, I highly recommend you get legal advice for your situation.

There are no friendly government offices. If you want to own this, you should get direction from people that will end up defending you if it goes bad.

Just advice.

[Don]

Tim, as a starting point, not meant to take the place of legal/professional advice regarding the laws/regulations on machine guns

Not positive, but only a dealer licensed by the BATF can handle, arrange transport, transfer to & from etc a machine gun until the owner is licensed by the BATF for a specific gun

January 12, 2009


SUMMARY OF STATE AND FEDERAL MACHINE GUN LAWS


http://www.cga.ct.gov/2009/rpt/2009-R-0020.htm

[Gun Doc]

Class III NFA weapons ownership can be very complicated. There are not only federal laws to contend with, but state and local laws as well. That said, it is not impossible to legally own an NFA weapon.

A good place to obtain information on owning, using, maintaining and just about everything else concerning these weapons is The Small Arms Review (http://www.smallarmsreview.com/) published by Moose Lake Publishing (Dan Shea). They also publish an ATF/NFA Handbook, which may answer many of your questions.

Gun Doc

[misfit41]

Originally Posted by Gun Doc

Class III NFA weapons ownership can be very complicated. There are not only federal laws to contend with, but state and local laws as well. That said, it is not impossible to legally own an NFA weapon.

A good place to obtain information on owning, using, maintaining and just about everything else concerning these weapons is The Small Arms Review (http://www.smallarmsreview.com/) published by Moose Lake Publishing (Dan Shea). They also publish an ATF/NFA Handbook, which may answer many of your questions.

Gun Doc

Thanks for your help,
This is what I am basing my research on ,the weapon I looked at is listed under section iv on this page .reading makes it appear possible to make this a legal weapon under c&r status.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1...7/section4.pdf

[shae marks]

If I Recall Correctly, there no Class III guns: there are Class III
Dealers who are licensed and taxed to deal in NFA Title II guns.
I am sure someone more knowledgable will correct me if I have
any of this wrong:

US machinegun laws are very restrictive and complicated.
That is, restrictive and complicated for the law-abiding.

Read More

[RonNichols]

Another way to think of it is if 50 million people owned machineguns illegally, they won't do anything about it and end up with amnesty. Kinda like being an illegal alien.

N. Cognito

[Dwight]

There are about 221,000 transferable machine guns that individuals may own. You have to pay a one time $200 tax, pass a FBI background check (fingerprint cards), fill out the IRS/ATF paperwork and get the local sheriff to sign your paperwork. All other machine guns that are used by the governments, police, etc usually are not transferable to individuals. There are three groups of machine guns, four if you count the illegal ones. One group is a class III weapon that is transferred between dealers, class II manufacturers and government agencies (police departments, etc) and cannot be transferred to individuals.
In Alabama if an individual can legally purchase a pistol he can buy a transferable machine gun.

Dwight

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by Dwight

In Alabama if an individual can legally purchase a pistol he can buy a transferable machine gun.

This is the sticking point for TK; IF the 1919 has never been in the system and IF it can't be C/R then it MAY NOT be transferable. The devil is in the details here.

Steve
TK, I'm still waiting for a call but I'll rattle their cages tomorrow and see what's up.

[FWB]

a 1919, is legal if you make the right side plate disappear. then its a non-gun.