Cheap Energy Investment

[bomelia]

... and lousy politicians

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522857,00.html

Complaining about $3.5 billion when the potential payoff is HUGE is so typical of liberal thinkers. Trillions spent on "anti-poverty" programs (and countless other useless programs) and we still have poverty and useless people. Trillions "invested" in "stimulus" (aka pork) and we will have nothing to show for it.

One day, fusion will work. Question is, will we (the USA) do it and own it? Or will some foreign country do it and they end up owning us?

Mike

[VRM]

Mike,
A GOP Congress investigated this project because of the cost back in 2001 and limited future funding.
A DNC Congress voted initial funding for the project.
Other labs (also full of bright folks) think that this project is a waste of money. They have also complained that a more conservative approach needs to be taken because the people at LLNL are playing a bit too free and loose (spending lots of money on experiments, but learning lots of things in the process)

That said, Tom Harkin (D) made a big stink about the cost of this as well.

This is not a simple GOP/DNC issue - trying to make it one is not going to get you anywhere.

BTW, this is the same place that had one of the lead guys get caught a few years ago for not really having his doctorate from some prestigious university. I think a few of us chatted about it in the Lounge...

BTW, I am all in favour of it.

Steve

[bomelia]

OK. But 3.5 billion is spit today. I think it is going to work (eventually)... and by that achieve comparable energy output to input. It may not happen in its current configuration, but a lot will be learned and changes to the design will lead to the goal. The search for a fusion solution is something I have always supported. It has practical application if it works. BTW, I saw a picture of the laser... you can pick it up and hold it. Its the amplifiers that do the heavy lifting.

Mike

[VRM]

Well, good - something we can agree on! My uncle explained some of this to me when I was a kid (he was a nuke officer on sub), and I've always found it interesting. I've always been in favour of nuke energy plants as well, and I grew up living about 12 miles away from one of them. The only side effect that I am aware of is a third arm and the ability to breathe underwater.

I've never seen pics of the laser scaled with anything else - can you post?

Steve

[Ron61]

There was a show on the Science channel the other day about this subject the other day. They are working on it from many angles and they did have a small demonstration where they got 3 times as much power out as it took to make it work. But as the head scientist said, cold fusion is a long ways from being a viable answer to power generation on any scale other than small tests. I would like to see them prefect it, but it will take much longer than I will be around. However they do seem to have some good ideas about how to go abut it now.

Steve,

I like the nuclear power plants. Two big things worry me. The waste fuel rods and the paid off people who build them and use cheap material and don't built them correctly. Remember, it was a valve that cause 3 mile island to almost melt down because it was installed incorrectly. Built the way the engineers design them, they are very safe if ran by competent people, and maybe some day they will find a way to do something with the fuel rods besides argue over them. The worst thing is people hear nuclear and immediately think of mushroom clouds.

Ron

[bomelia]

Originally Posted by VRM

Well, good - something we can agree on! My uncle explained some of this to me when I was a kid (he was a nuke officer on sub), and I've always found it interesting. I've always been in favour of nuke energy plants as well, and I grew up living about 12 miles away from one of them. The only side effect that I am aware of is a third arm and the ability to breathe underwater.

I've never seen pics of the laser scaled with anything else - can you post?

Steve

I would have to look for it... I saw it on a TV science program.

Now Ron, what has Cold Fusion got to do with this, or are you like me, suffering from a cold and dipping into the cold medicine? And yes, it is true that 3 Mile suffered the damage for the reasons you described. Today, the design that is being proposed in future installations is sort of a "pre-fab" deal. It is assembled and delivered completed. Since it is a standard, closed, carefully controlled-in-a-factory-built machine, it is also "pre-signed-off" on. How do I know this? I have a friend who works in a nuclear plant in Chattanooga. Also, they have a place to store them... Yucca Mountain. And as the French have showed (yeah, I know, FTF), these can be recycled and reprocessed back into useable rods thus increasing their lifetime indefinitely. So storage is less of a concern. Somewhere I read that the French (who have the highest number of Nuke plants) can store all of their current waste in a home garage (lead lined, under 100 feet of concrete, of course)

Mike

[Ron61]

Mike,

I just thought that I would throw the cold fusion into the mix. I know about the Yucca Mountain and have seen some of the demonstrations along the rail lines that would haul some of the waste. I believe the transportation is the weak link as even with the best of planning something can go wrong. However the containers they will have the rods in are almost unbreakable, but what if some terrorist got to one of them and managed to open it up. As I said, I wish they would build more nuclear plants and train the people well.

Ron

[bomelia]

People are still seriously discussing cold fusion? I think I have seen those websites... wacky people.

The point about the French (yeah, I know, FTF) is that they store so little since they have developed (actually, co-opted from us) excellent reuse technologies. That, of course, should happen here. Why not? Eco nut heads.

http://www.heritage.org/press/commentary/ed010108d.cfm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...gs/french.html (to satisfy those folks who think conservative sources are evil)

Mike

[Wes Tausend]

...

Mike,

Heck, $3.5 billion (ed. was "million") isn't so bad if it can be used to kill:

"...A Livermore-based group called Tri-Valley Communities Against a Radioactive Environment said in a statemen that the NIF was $4 billion over budget, 9 years behind schedule and was also built to help design future nuclear weapons..."
I mean as far as weapon costs usually go.

And slowing down (ed. was "speeding up") light is a pretty good trick:

"...Eventually turning ultraviolet, the beams push a million miles an hour toward the tiny hydrogen-fuel pellet in the center..."

============

Ron,

Cold fusion?? Isn't that a little bit like cold fire?
What're we going to heat up with it to extract energy? Maybe turn some lead into gold. But everybody will be doing it.

We could safely build some nuclear plants in Russia. I hear there is a vodka and radiation resistant strain of humans emerging there. Three arms and can breathe, drink vodka under water etc. VRM claims he lived in England.

I wonder about the "hot" container items. I once had a 6 axled flat car (99.9% are 4 axles) at the head of my train. The manifest didn't actually say what was in it, but when folks asked , I told them it said something about Little Man and Fatboy. Whatever the huge cylinder vault really was, it was heavy.

One of the things I really liked about McCain was his enthusiasm for developing nuclear power. Apparently works pretty good on Carriers, something he is very familiar with.

Wes

...

[cobra bill]

One of the things I really liked about McCain was his enthusiasm for developing nuclear power. Apparently works pretty good on Carriers, something he is very familiar with.

Wes

...[/quote]

The thing about the reactors that GE builds for the Navy is they are all built to exacting tolerances and specifications, under the tightest Quality assurance program the navy could develop, the reactors built for civil use are built by the lowest bidder.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

The thing about the reactors that GE builds for the Navy is they are all built to exacting tolerances and specifications, under the tightest Quality assurance program the navy could develop, the reactors built for civil use are built by the lowest bidder.

Bill,

Might be the lowest bidder in either case. Steve's (VRM) uncle, and his kind, are keeping an eye on things. In the end, that's what counts.

Wes

...

[bomelia]

Not sure if you are making fun, but the speed of light is 670,616,629.4 MPH or 186,282.397 MPS. So a million miles per hour is a low estimate. In fact, you could say the guy was speaking in layman terms.

BTW, it IS possible to slow light down. WAY down. But not speed it up.

Mike

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

...

Mike,

Heck, $3.5 billion (ed. was "million") isn't so bad if it can be used to kill:

"...A Livermore-based group called Tri-Valley Communities Against a Radioactive Environment said in a statemen that the NIF was $4 billion over budget, 9 years behind schedule and was also built to help design future nuclear weapons..."
I mean as far as weapon costs usually go.

And slowing down (ed. was "speeding up") light is a pretty good trick:

"...Eventually turning ultraviolet, the beams push a million miles an hour toward the tiny hydrogen-fuel pellet in the center..."

============

Ron,

Cold fusion?? Isn't that a little bit like cold fire?
What're we going to heat up with it to extract energy? Maybe turn some lead into gold. But everybody will be doing it.

We could safely build some nuclear plants in Russia. I hear there is a vodka and radiation resistant strain of humans emerging there. Three arms and can breathe, drink vodka under water etc. VRM claims he lived in England.

I wonder about the "hot" container items. I once had a 6 axled flat car (99.9% are 4 axles) at the head of my train. The manifest didn't actually say what was in it, but when folks asked , I told them it said something about Little Man and Fatboy. Whatever the huge cylinder vault really was, it was heavy.

One of the things I really liked about McCain was his enthusiasm for developing nuclear power. Apparently works pretty good on Carriers, something he is very familiar with.

Wes

...

[bomelia]

Almost everything is built by the lowest bidder... even your cobra.

Can we stay on topic? If I am going to get compared to Beavis and Butthead, then so are you.

Mike

Originally Posted by cobra bill

...


The thing about the reactors that GE builds for the Navy is they are all built to exacting tolerances and specifications, under the tightest Quality assurance program the navy could develop, the reactors built for civil use are built by the lowest bidder. ...

[Wes Tausend]

...

My apologies, Mike.

Wes

...

[bomelia]

No problem Wes. But I am surprised nobody picked up on the "slowing down" of light.

Mike

[Ron61]

Wes,

The cold fusion idea is still around and is being worked on by some good scientists today. The clip that I saw on the Science channel took a huge amount of equipment to make that small amount of power, but the fact is they got out more than they had to use to make it. And it wasn't just water they used as the comic books show. I can't even pronounce, let alone spell what they used. The Laser was the only thing that I recognized. But I did find it interesting and fascinating, and if they could perfect it. we would have unlimited electric power. Not something the power companies would be happy about I am sure.
Mike, this wasn't on a website, it was on the Science channel on TV. Maybe still a wacky idea but we have to try something. I am sure many thought the same about almost every new thing that had emerged in the past years. What do you think people would have thought about you 70 years ago if you told them that someday they could sit in front of a box and watch live pictures from all over the planet?

Ron

[Wes Tausend]

...

Originally Posted by bomelia

No problem Wes. But I am surprised nobody picked up on the "slowing down" of light.

Mike

Thanks, Mike.

I did get back to my post to correct it somewhat, after I ate my hot steak. But by then the "hurry-up", unedited version had gone out in email, I suppose.

I do like your original post on fusion. I, too, think it would solve some issues ...and I hope America is on top of it. China is breathing down our neck.

Wes

Originally Posted by Ron61

Wes,

The cold fusion idea is still around and is being worked on by some good scientists today... ...And it wasn't just water they used as the comic books show....

Ron

I have some doubts as to how useful cold fusion will be. The explanatory theory has yet to catch up with it. It is not really mainstream science, but I do believe that some spurious nuclear activity might occur. It would not be much more unreasonable than normal chemical oxidation occurring at either a slow rate, or fast, as in fire. Particles do weird things partly because odds say they will on occasion. Like Hawking noting that they will escape from a black hole even though nothing can. Like slow oxidation, maybe slow fusion can be hurried.

...it wasn't just water... No, deuterium, an isotope. As a coincidence, I am currently reading a book, that deals primarily with isotopes, entitled, THE RELATIVITY OF WRONG by Isaac Asimov. More well known as a Sci-Fi writer, Asimov wrote science in a light fashion easy to understand for laymen like myself. Most of all, I appreciate his showing, in detail, how these theorists come up with the ideas so that one can completely follow their reasoning. That quality is rare, IMO. I actually seek his books because they give me that "Aha!" feeling.

Wes

...

[Ron61]

Wes,

That sounds like a good book that you are reading. There are so many theories out there about ways to generate power that it is hard to try and keep them in context. I believe that Israel did some experimentation with generating power by using the deeper cooler layer and the upper warmer layer of water in the sea but that was long ago and I can't even remember what they called it. But like most of the things they have tried it takes more input than they got output. I still believe that nuclear power is the only thing that we have now that is within our ability to actually use and gain a lot from it. And I do believe that someday they will figure out a way to decontaminate the fuel rods. To my knowledge the nuclear power plant at Bodega Bay has never had any serious problems and it hasn't harmed anyone living in that area.

Mike,

If the environmentalists would let them build more power plants, I believe we could at least ease some of the problems that exist in that area. But out here they won't even let them build any more dams as that may interfere with the fish. And I am not for more coal powered plants myself unless they can clean up their emissions. So with our situation out here, I think we will just continue to have more and more of the rolling brown outs as the power grid is at capacity now.

Ron

[bomelia]

Ron, like Forrest Gump said "stupid is as stupid does". Rolling brown outs are stupid. Especially when we know how to solve the problem. Coal & other fossil fuels are not the long term solution. Nuclear energy (fission or fusion) is. When these eco nuts finally die off, and our situation becomes trully dire, then we will get back on the right track. It starts with the kids.

Mike

[Ron61]

Mike,

I agree and I believe that many of the people do also. It is just that dam group that hands out the fliers with the picture of a nuclear power plant and the mushroom cloud above it, They are so dumb that they don't realize it is not going to cause a nuclear explosion. I argued with one of them one day for 10 minutes and he kept referring to Chernobyl (spelling). I told him that was not a nuclear explosion but the superheated steam that came from the cooling water because they couldn't get the reactor shut down and the water got to low. Then he started in about if it wasn't a nuclear explosion there wouldn't have been any radiation. I told him that came from the core and that was why once they are started up, the building they are in is sealed. And besides those were the old graphite type reactors. They have several nuclear power plants in Europe and no problems. We need about 7 more out here or soon the rolling brown outs will be in every small town. Last Summer they had some in Redding and it is by no means a large city. I really don't see how they saved anything here with them as they would crank up every air conditioner as high as it would go once the power came back on in an area and those office buildings get hot in 115+ heat.

Ron