Nationalized Health Care in 2 weeks? Rise up people!

[IndyCobra]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

No one is taking away your present health insurance, there has to be a public plan, to keep the for profit ones in check.....

Not true and typical of the short sighted thinking in Washington. When the government sets up shop to provide free insurance and taxes the hell out of businesses and individuals to pay for it, what do you think businesses are going to do as a result? Any guess? They are going to eliminate the single largest cost item off their P&L, that being the cost of medical insurance. With a government safety net provided, businesses will simply stop offering their current medical plans. By default, the government will eliminate private heath plans and my choice will be eliminated. The government will complely absorb yet another american industry and undoubtedly, the quality of the care will decline.

I have worked in state and federal governments for 30 years. There is not a single thing they do that is better than private industry. Nothing, nada.......except employ a bunch of people who couldn't possibly get a job out in the "real world".

[Bobcat]

Wayne ... thanks for the first hand info . There is always a lot of "I heard" stuff out there . You are correct on the drug costs with the private insurance companies here as I have experienced that myself . One of my daughters is a P.A for two Infectious disease doctors and one of them went ballistic last summer when an insurance company refused to approve the drug he said was essential because of cost .
As far as the administrative costs , one thing to keep in mind is that Govt. doesn`t need to make a profit while the private sector does ... and I don`t doubt that salaries etc do figure into it . However , Medicare and Medicade are both essentially bankrupt and going further in the hole every year . It`s my feeling that if their true and complete cost of operation were known , the public would probably have blood squirting from their eyes in anger .
As you said , probably the best system is a combination of a parallel and possibly Medicare/Medicade ... but like Canada , the govt will resist that 100 %. What my concern is that we will destroy everything to "help" 30% of the people who don`t have insurance for whatever reason .

[Feffman]

Imagine the people delivering the mail running your health care!

Feff

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Feffman

Imagine the people delivering the mail running your health care!

Feff

Imagine FedEx or UPS delivering an envelope, from one end of the country to the other, walking up to your door, handing it to you and wishing you ,"Good morning".

Now imagine them doing it for $0.44.
Doubt that will be happening soon in the private sector. Not that they don't have friendly employees, mind you.

My cost to send mail is less than $5.00 a month. Be thankful for what we have. A nice mix of private and government run entities.
Healthcare insurance is already costing me (and probably you) over $1000.00 a month ...and rising faster than postage.
Think it over.

Wes

...

[mdmull]

Keep in mind that for all of the "efficiencies" in the medicare/government system, the people currently working for insurance companies that will be out of jobs as the system "transitions" to a single payer system (at least a likely, if not certain outcome) will be hired in the government system. The SEIU will probably represent them, no more 50-60 hour weeks, no profit motive left to minimize labor costs, no way to lose your job for bad customer service, more paid holidays, more vacation days, more personal time off, paid maternity leave (men women & others), & keep in mind, the current federal employee average pay exceeds the private industry averages. How can this possibly reduce costs? & moreover, if Obamacare is going to reduce costs, why is it going to need $1.5T in additional "revenue"????

[cobra bill]

Well I'm not sure where you got the idea that government workers make more than in the private sector, doing the same thing I do now, for the government I could be making a 6 digit salary, as it is I barley make half of that, I will admit, I stay for the benefits, but then I am in the old retirement system, the new one is no ware near as good and I would not have stayed with the government this long had I been on that system.

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

Well I'm not sure where you got the idea that government workers make more than in the private sector, doing the same thing I do now, for the government I could be making a 6 digit salary, as it is I barley make half of that, I will admit, I stay for the benefits, but then I am in the old retirement system, the new one is no ware near as good and I would not have stayed with the government this long had I been on that system.

I barley make half of that

Barley? As you should!

Also, ware relates to clothing, try using where.

This is starting to embarrass all of us.

You are so very well suited for government work!

Now, we all make typos, but this is way over the edge.

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by mdmull

Keep in mind that for all of the "efficiencies" in the medicare/government system, the people currently working for insurance companies that will be out of jobs as the system "transitions" to a single payer system (at least a likely, if not certain outcome) will be hired in the government system. The SEIU will probably represent them, no more 50-60 hour weeks, no profit motive left to minimize labor costs, no way to lose your job for bad customer service, more paid holidays, more vacation days, more personal time off, paid maternity leave (men women & others), & keep in mind, the current federal employee average pay exceeds the private industry averages. How can this possibly reduce costs? & moreover, if Obamacare is going to reduce costs, why is it going to need $1.5T in additional "revenue"????

CBO Sees No Federal Cost Savings in Dem Health Plans
July 16, 2009 11:58 AM

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/200...lth-plans.html

Also, it's my understand that the CBO will not have time to completely 'score' government health care (project costs) until after the bill has been passed.

[VRM]

Businesses respond to profit incentives. Health care is expensive partly because the processes are not efficient. I changed health plans a few years ago and was in the middle of getting some bone spurs removed; my new PCP wanted to see me (had to wait another 4 weeks) and take new x-rays (he said the originals were inconclusive) before he would authorise the HMO to allow me to go to the same specialist I had already seen.
Governments job is to regulate the incentives and punishments for an industry, not set up shop themselves.

It is also unfortunate in our society that money is the only thing that really provides an incentive - 'doing the right thing' really does not.

Steve

[mdmull]

CspaceB - an example of what I'm referring to in terms of relative salaries - http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/Careers/1...ent/index.html

And for the medium level income positions the benefits that are not in these numbers are much more than the average private sector.

[cobra bill]

I'm in no disagreement that the benefits are great, and for me it's better than most, I am on the old retirement system, the old system has hurt civil service in many ways though, after Reagan used the money in the CSRS retirement system to offset the budget deficit they changed to the new system because there was no money left in the system, it's all IOU's and when we compete with contractors for our jobs, they factor in the missing money in any budget submitted for the bidding purpose.

CDC, that’s all you got? A typo! Give me an argument in your favor,
You are only revealing who you really are.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by mdmull

CspaceB - an example of what I'm referring to in terms of relative salaries - http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/Careers/1...ent/index.html

And for the medium level income positions the benefits that are not in these numbers are much more than the average private sector.

I question whether those numbers are really accurate. Judges are notoriously underpaid -- both at the state and federal level. Most decent lawyers (and some crappy ones) make more than their state's Supreme Court Justices.

[Dan40]

Government run health care.....................................Governmen t plans in general.

We could bring up what Medicare was "SUPPOSED" to cost. But it cost many times more.
We could bring up what Medicaid was "SUPPOSED" to cost. But, same results.

We could talk about Amtrak, USPS, The CZarista's and Tzarina's and their UNCHECKED powers.

We could talk about the Dept. of Energy. Formed over 30 years ago with one single directive. REDUCE OUR DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN OIL!!! So it has a multi Billion dollar annual budget. Employees and 'contractors numbering around 150,000 people. Accomplished in its over 30 years of existence??? NOTHING!! AT ALL!! Unless you count a multi fold INCREASE in our dependence on foreign oil.
And Cap and Trade will do the same job while the Dept. of Energy still exists. And Cap and Trade will accomplish the exact same results. Billions wasted, taxes increased, bigger Government, and absolute ZERO positive results.

T.A.R.P. Troubled Asset Relief Program is what liberals said was the plan. It was not and is not a plan, it was a concept in need of a plan. It was passed unread and NO troubled assets were purchased from any banks.
Banks were brought under Washington's control. How much waste?? We will never know but billions on billions and many people in and out of Government should be incarcerated for this fraud.

Stimulus I EMERGENCY, EMERGENCY, must be passed, NOW,NOW, NOW, no time to read! obummer signs at leisure. The PLAN, uhh its being 'formulated'................ A third of the money now gone, $1 in $3 lost to who knows where. FRAUD!!!!

The health care plan, again NO PLAN AT ALL. A liberal CONCEPT that ALL should be insured on the Govt. dime.
The non-plan PLANS proposed so far DO NOT insure all [and how did insurance become synonymous with health care??] And it will cost between $1 TRILLION and $6 TRILLION. Depending on who you believe. But since there IS NO PLAN, no estimate of the cost of the CONCEPT can be believed by any party.

ALL of the liberal agenda is a rush to write blank checks while they have the unrestricted power to pass them.

Well thought out Government programs, well studied, much discussed and then passed, have turned into complete boondoggles many times in the past.

Writing open ended blank checks is plain BAD GOVERNMENT! Idiots should be able to see that.

[RAZOR]

Hello Razor

Its an interesting comparison

Although the land size of Queensland is (almost) 5x that of California (424,000 sq.km v 1,853,000 sq.km) the Population comparison is probably more relevant.

Queensland Aust: 4,048,467

California US: 36,756,666

The population of California is greater than the whole of the Australia (about 22 million)

Population levels and population density has a dramatic effect on the revenue base that medical services can be funded from - whether public or private.

It may be true that the health care available in Queensland (or any part of Australia) is below that available in the US however the main argument is how much care you (the population) get for your $.

LoBelly

LoBelly, you are certainly correct, its how much care for the $. What is your experience with the Australian health system, private and public, I will say that my daughter, she is a nurse, and son in law spoke in only goods terms about both systems, only that in the public system their is a waiting list, and for some things, that are not life threatening, but would contribute to quality of life you may never get the care needed.If you take the population of the US, I cant imagine how long the list might be.
By the way they loved Australia, and the people, never could figure out the hamburger that had fried egg, and everything else under the sun on it.


The other problem no one has spoken about is how our doctors will take this change, the AMA which is liberal has spoken against the community organizers plan, and if things get too crazy we will lose our health care professionals, my daughter has said they would go back to Australia in a moment, our doctors face issues that other countries do not, one being Tort reform, and concern where that is going.

[RAZOR]

Stop socialized healthcare??? Hogwash.

Here[/url] is a good example of what is actually generating the backlash over government health care. The popular site may be somewhat overloaded by truth-seekers.

Private healthcare insurance currently has about a 20% overhead administration cost where Medicare only has about 3%. As a rule, US government run programs are far more efficient than private counterparts, like it or not. For one thing, they don't have wallstreet stockholder leaches to pay ...and another, no huge executive salary/bonus burdens. Most government workers don't get paid as much as the private sector. Of course there is a lot of corporate crying, wringing of hands and the usual false scare propoganda, as large insurance corporations contemplate reduced profiteering.

From the patients point of view, it is better to have a government bureaucrat between you and your doctor than a corporate bureaucrat in the way. The government guy works for you ...the corporate guy works for stockholders and himself. We are the government, we control it, but we can't vote corporate crooks out. Just common sense. Geez.

Imagine what it would cost if police protection was all private ...or fire protection ...or military. Way more than we could ever dream. But then private US health care now cost way more than we ever dreamed too. And if any of you think your current health plan is spending their time thinking up ways to cover you better and cheaper next year, think again.

Time for US government to govern. America sure as hell wasn't built on capitalism. And it sure as hell wasn't built on socialism. It was built with a healthy balance of the two ...and the well-funded capitalists are getting a little heavy and causing her to list.

Time to rise up alright, start over. Meet the challenge with a level head. There is nothing wrong with overgrown arrogant corporations ...they just need a good shellacking once in a while. It'll be good for America in the long run.

Wes

Wes what you call efficient some would call Tyranny, Medicare dictates to the doctor what it will pay, no discussion and and since a doctor must charge everyone the same they must overcharge others to make up the loss on Medicare. And Medicare is still broke, a government system will just ration the health care we receive, in England if over the age of 65 you do not get dialysis.

Now for the outlandish statement that this country was built partly on socialism, please tell us the details, who, when, where. If any rising up is to be done it is to stop the destruction of socialism on this country, it sure didn't work any where else, USSR, Cuba, its a destroyer of freedom and the people. "government at its best is a necessary evil" Thomas Paine, "The government that governs the best, governs the lest" Thomas Jefferson

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

I'm in no disagreement that the benefits are great, and for me it's better than most, I am on the old retirement system, the old system has hurt civil service in many ways though, after Reagan used the money in the CSRS retirement system to offset the budget deficit they changed to the new system because there was no money left in the system, it's all IOU's and when we compete with contractors for our jobs, they factor in the missing money in any budget submitted for the bidding purpose.

CDC, that’s all you got? A typo! Give me an argument in your favor,
You are only revealing who you really are.

So, here's another one of your bro's Cobra (space) Bill (Singer).......get ready to die, liberals first....

The great thing is that those that can afford to pay will continue to live longer....mostly conservatives, no government workers included....

Why We Must Ration Health Care

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/ma...3&ref=magazine