Health Care Not A Right

[427sharpe]

[i]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

Once again, scare tactics, it's OK for the republicans to borrow and spend but not for the democrats to Tax and spend

Not when BHO wants to spend more than all the rest of the US Presidents...COMBINED (look it up!)

the people have spoken,

No..as of yet the politicians are speaking; let's see what the people say in 2010 and 2012!

and force the insurance companies to take clients with pre-existing conditions, and not refuse to cover you because it's too expensive

And of course when the companies go belly up...we can always let the government take them over!

if you do not wish to contribute to the commons, then get the hell out, it's We the people, in order to from a more perfect union. And that's what we are doing! Either get on board or get out!

It seems as if you have read the Obama manifesto completely...why listen to reason, why encourage workers to work and earners to earn? Just tax everybody into poverty. Obamunism is trickle up poverty; nothing more. The man is an anti-American socialist hack, pure and simple. I just hope you live long enough in government healthcare to realize it.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

OK I'm sure that not enough people are living within their means, but this was just what the banks and corporations wanted, they did everything in their power to make this society what it is today, Oh sure it was the peoples own foolishness to buy into living a lifestyle thy could not afford, but not all of us have gone down that road.

Once again, scare tactics, it's OK for the republicans to borrow and spend but not for the democrats to Tax and spend, the people have spoken, we are willing to pay extra to get healthcare, and force the insurance companies to take clients with pre-existing conditions, and not refuse to cover you because it's too expensive, I don't feel bad if the CEO, can't get a 300% increase in pay in 2 years, yes that’s correct look it up! Just as we are willing to pay for defense, police, firefighter, and yes education, if you do not wish to contribute to the commons, then get the hell out, it's We the people, in order to from a more perfect union. And that's what we are doing! Either get on board or get out!

See if you recoginize that this is the exact same vomit that you champion on this board.
All of the ignorant, brainwashed and stupid statements you make ARE contained within the following::

Synopsis of The Communist Manifesto

The Communist Manifesto is too long to be a concise declaration of principles and too short to be a book. It is composed of about 17,000 words including various introductions by Friedrich Engels. It is arranged, basically, in four sections. The first section introduces the Marxian idea of history as a class struggle. It juxtaposes the conditions and development of various strata of society, "freeman and slave, patrician and plebian, lord and serf...in a word, oppressor and oppressed." It hypothesizes how the development of each of these in history gave rise to the next step in an inevitable historical process culminating ultimately in the rise of one working class.
Marx and Engels put forward the notion that the working class is exploited by the bourgeoisie. Positing a labor theory of value where the value of goods and services is based strictly on the amount of labor that is put into them, The Manifesto, says that all the surplus that goes to the capitalist as profits is in reality the "property" of the working class who created that wealth.
The second section of the Communist Manifesto addresses the nature of the new working class which he calls the proletariate. He reviews its implications for the advancement of society, including the abolition of property and family. This section also stresses a kind of Utopia that can only be brought about by violence and conflict with the working class wresting power from the bourgeoisie (the owners of the means of production). This conflict is projected also to bring about the end of nation-states and, ultimately, all forms of government, resulting in a worker's paradise.


This is the future you seek, ALREADY proven to be unworkable.
RU nuts??

[427sharpe]

Cobra Bill; apparently the people ARE speaking:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl824

But a recent "poll of polls" by CNN shows that, on the key issue of health-care reform, the public's approval of his handling of the hot-button issue has plummeted below 50 percent for the first time.

By your advice previous, I just have one question.

ARE YOU PACKING YET?

[fsstnotch]

Based on the current figures... the cost of my healthcare will double, the care given will drop significantly, the cost of utilities will rise 60%, the chance of being terminated or laid off has quadrupled.... ya... sounds to me that even people living within their means may soon be struggling. all the while the morons in gov't will keep spending like there's no tomorrow!

[cobra bill]

See always a boogieman! so why have none of the other countries that have healthcare for all collapse, we have a long track record of how it's done, we either emulate it or improve on it, but either way it's time we do it.

Hey I want Fox news there, and the drugster, all of them! just shows the level of insanity and the corporate shills that they are.

Robin hood was a fairy tale, stop living in a dream world!

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

See always a boogieman! so why have none of the other countries that have healthcare for all collapse, we have a long track record of how it's done, we either emulate it or improve on it, but either way it's time we do it.

Hey I want Fox news there, and the drugster, all of them! just shows the level of insanity and the corporate shills that they are.

Robin hood was a fairy tale, stop living in a dream world!

RH is ob's hero. The obummer is the one in the dream world.

It must be a great mystery why the socialist medicine countries ALL have a healthy private clinic industry. And why the US Canadian border, US side, is lined with health clinics. And liberals claim that Americans go overseas for treatment. A flat lie. The foreigners that can afford it come here. The only Americans that go to another country are terminal cases trying to extend their life. [understandable] But they DIE.

[cobra bill]

I'm sorry to hear about your health problems, and I'm not saying that anyone is a victim, what I am trying to say is we are the wealthiest country on the face of the earth, if even Mexico can have healthcare for all why can't we! It doesn't have to be a government system, though it would do a lot for keeping the insurance companies in check, all I am saying is why can we not rise to the occasion and make it a better world for all.
And your point is valid, I do come down on corporations, if more people would do a little research though and see how destructive they have been to our society you would not be so willing to blindly stand behind any rhetoric they put out. if you think we as a nation should be strict constructionist, then let's go back to the way corporations were originally treated, they had to be revue every 2 years and if they were found to not be benefiting the country they lost their corporate status. ever since the supreme court allowed corporations the status as personhood, they have corrupted our society, why should they have all the same rights as a citizen, they are an entity, they never die and they have un-do influence over politicians, and they have stacked the deck in the supreme court to hold that power, read about the federalist society, they are all members, and there only role in life is to insure that the corporations never lose their status as persons, it's the only there that Justice Roberts did in his career, he was paid 2 million a year to fight against all that would attempted to change corporate status.

[cobra bill]

Not true, our own HMO's send patience overseas and even pay for room and board while they are there to have it done cheaper. I know a lot of people that have gone to Mexico for dental work, and yes you are correct if you are rich, this is a great place to get healthcare, when money is no option, you can buy anything, even good healthcare, but what about the rest of the poor slobs out there, throw them to the wolves cause they can't afford it here, remember we pay twice as much as any other nation and are only rated 37th and the insurance companies are spending 1.5 million a day to fight this, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know when Greed has surpassed compassion, in some countries it's against the law to charge for healthcare, they see it as a criminal act to profit from the suffering of others, but then those that are that greedy really are criminals,
cause it's what Jesus would do right?

[Joe Wicked]

One thing about ratings. They are done by people. People have biases. Quality health care is a great title, but what do they base quality on? Number of people getting sick? % of population getting sick? number if illness resulting in Death? %population resulting in Death? Statistics can be spun easily to mean what ever you want them to mean. This has been proven over and over again. Quality health care has so many facets that there is not a real way to rank 1 over the other. Does 1 sickness get a higher rank than another? Why?

Making a living (Profit) from HEALING is not making money off of suffering. You are working to end the suffering.

[cobra bill]

Well we have a higher infant mortality rate then all those other counties and a shorter life span, that's all the data I need dead is dead and it's hard to argue those numbers!

I never said a worker is not entitled to be paid for what they do. it's the greed of the corporate world that I am against even those countries that have a law against profiting from someone suffering still pay their doctors and hospital staff.

It's the same as war profiteering, it should be criminal!

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

Well we have a higher infant mortality rate then all those other counties and a shorter life span, that's all the data I need dead is dead and it's hard to argue those numbers!

I never said a worker is not entitled to be paid for what they do. it's the greed of the corporate world that I am against even those countries that have a law against profiting from someone suffering still pay their doctors and hospital staff.

It's the same as war profiteering, it should be criminal!

Actually it is easy to argue with those numbers. First off, the WHO is a liberal political body only very loosely concerned about actual medicine.
Second the US through the AMA counts every PREGNANCY as an infant and a person. Any miscarriage counts as an infant mortality and adds a person with 0 to our life expectancy, NO country ahead of us in the WHO rankings does either of those things.. Miscarriages are treated like the pregnancy never happened. Stillborns are treated like miscarriages. And only live born infants that pass away are counted as an infant mortality.

So quote all the money grubbing lying statistics you wish. The FACT still is that our northern border is filled with American clinics for Canadians. And there are few if any clinics for Americans just across the northern or southern borders. Plenty of drug sellers, ethical and illegal, but no clinics.
That is reality, not manipulated stats.

Our health care system does need repairs, but it is the best in the world. Liberals lie about that because they do not want to FIX it. They want to scrap it entirely and rebuild it completely under their control. obummers/liberal/democrat health care concepts [again, no actual PLAN to implement or to fund] is simply another in the unbroken chain of blank check power grabs.
It is akin to one's prized Cobra needing new plugs. obummers plan is, send the Cobra to the crusher and replace it with a rusty Pinto,,,,,,,,,FREE.
But everyone with a single surviving brain cell, just ONE, knows even the rusty Pinto isn't free-------------WORTHLESS but not free.

[Roscoe]

I don't recall Reagan raising taxes on the middle class. I DO remember a 25% across the board tax cuts by Reagan which increased the amount received by the government by 100%. This was due to the fact that it was easier to pay taxes than to hide them in shelters. Classic Laffer Curve. Look up Kemp-Roth tax relief. Look up Laffer Curve.

Roscoe

[Roscoe]

US ranks 30th out of 191 countries with the difference between 30th and 1st is about 4 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

[Roscoe]

Cobra Bill,

What if you owned the company you work for? How would you feel then? Do I detect a hint of 'class struggle'? The poor never employed anyone. Can we hum a few bars of 'The Internationale'?

Roscoe

[csx4910]

Cobra Bill,
If the other countryies have such great healthcare and we are so corrupt, then move over there and live in england or Mexico for even 6 months and you would be begging to be able to move back to america and have the access to healthcare they don't. You think all of Mexico has healthcare and great benefits? if so then why are so many of them (thousands every day) flocking across our borders for a chance at a better life in America?
Ron

[cobra bill]

Yes I would, if I owned a corporation I would not be interested in the kind of greed that's shown today, as long as the company could sustain itself and pay all its employees well I would be very happy.
And yes we had the biggest tax increase in our history under Reagan, the largest portion being social security, and he used the surplus in that for the general fund, along with the retirement fund of all the government workers and that's why it seemed as though those tax cuts for the wealthy actually worked. it was the Reagan legacy project that has over the years re-written the history on him, just as they are doing with Bush.

I will look those up, thanks I am never afraid to research anything, and if I am wrong, I will admit it.

[cobra bill]

There are 32 countries that have a lower infant mortality rate then we do.

and look at some of those that are better than we are, it's just a little embarrassing!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ate_%282005%29

[Roscoe]

Do you mean to say that if you owned the company you would only be happy if the company sustained itself and paid it's employees? C'mon. Do you mean you would not wish the best for your family? A nice home? Strong investments for your future...for your wife if you die....for your children?

In order to have an open exchange of ideas and opinions we must be intellectually honest.

In our society there will always be scumbags. Whether they be wealthy or middle class....even poor. These are the negatives that we have to deal with. It should not be a condemnation of every business owner as greedy. Greed in the classic sense is good.

And I say again, when is the last time a poor person hired you?

Roscoe

[cobra bill]

Originally Posted by Roscoe

Do you mean to say that if you owned the company you would only be happy if the company sustained itself and paid it's employees? C'mon. Do you mean you would not wish the best for your family? A nice home? Strong investments for your future...for your wife if you die....for your children?

In order to have an open exchange of ideas and opinions we must be intellectually honest.

In our society there will always be scumbags. Whether they be wealthy or middle class....even poor. These are the negatives that we have to deal with. It should not be a condemnation of every business owner as greedy. Greed in the classic sense is good.

And I say again, when is the last time a poor person hired you?

Roscoe

I am being honest, when I grew up a business owner or CEO made 20 times that of the workers, and they lived just fine, My parents are small business owners, took no more then that from the company, they grew it re-investing and they are living good lives, it didn't take money for them to have happyness. I see no reason to expect 30% growth in an industry to be healthy or necessary! Most small businesses people are on par with that of my parents, but they are not the ones that brought this country to its knees.

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by Roscoe

Do you mean to say that if you owned the company you would only be happy if the company sustained itself and paid it's employees? C'mon. Do you mean you would not wish the best for your family? A nice home? Strong investments for your future...for your wife if you die....for your children?

In order to have an open exchange of ideas and opinions we must be intellectually honest.

In our society there will always be scumbags. Whether they be wealthy or middle class....even poor. These are the negatives that we have to deal with. It should not be a condemnation of every business owner as greedy. Greed in the classic sense is good.

And I say again, when is the last time a poor person hired you?

Roscoe

Roscoe, Cobra (space) Bill works for the federal government - he's run a company into the ground if he had a chance. He only thinks liberal thoughts.

By the way, you can find his thinking on any one of the liberal sites: CNN, DailyKos, DemocratUnderground, Obama's books, etc.