Health Care Not A Right

[cobra bill]

See always a boogieman! so why have none of the other countries that have healthcare for all collapse, we have a long track record of how it's done, we either emulate it or improve on it, but either way it's time we do it.

Hey I want Fox news there, and the drugster, all of them! just shows the level of insanity and the corporate shills that they are.

Robin hood was a fairy tale, stop living in a dream world!

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

I have no trouble with a doctor making a good wage, its corporations that only care about profit and not just a sustainable profit, but pure un-adulterated greed kind of profit, you know if they have 1.5 million to spend a day on fighting this, what does that tell you, I don't want a corporation between me and my doctor, I would take a bureaucrat any day!
And yes losing your life savings or your home to pay for healthcare is being penalized, 60% of all bankruptcy's are attributed to healthcare expenses. And if you get sick and can't work you lose your health insurance, then you lose your savings, next comes the home, these are people that work, not the losers on welfare or won't work, these are productive members of society, the dregs of society, those that live on government handouts only make up less than 1% of the population, everyone else is struggling to make their way in this world.
I like the way you guys always need a Boogieman! It's always something,
Liberal, Communist, Socialist, terrorist, the only way you can make your argument is to try and scare the un-educated, you're going right along with your play book, Hitler did know how to scare the public!

Are you trying to tell me that is not the liberal mind set, always a victim, must blame society.If the shoe fits. Nothing wrong with a label if its accurate. And you say big business is the Boogieman, the bad guy.You throw out these statements with no connecting thought, where did I or "you guys" (by the way is "you guys" better than saying conservative, or is that politically incorrect?)try to scare people, its the big B.O. that is saying everything in this country is broken and without his saving effarts {sp intentional} we are doomed and everything must be
changed right this second.

NOW MAY I SAY THAT I AM ONE OF THE unfortunate ones that has had health problems and out of work. Out of no where a pain started in my right thigh, long story, and no plot, I spent over two months in the hospital, in rehab hospital twice for total of 3 weeks, have had 4 surgeries, septic knee/Osteomilitis in right femur. Docs have know idea how I got it, usually its after an operation, I had none prior to illness. First operation in May of 08, walking with cane in Nov 08 and the leg broke, so back to hospital insert rod in leg,now the snap,crackle,and pop in the morning is not my cereal. NO ONE to blame for my illness, I'm not penalized by society, Out of work for over a year. I am not angry at any one, although I went to the emergency room at Cleveland Clinic,which was just rated 4th best hospital in US, 7 times in two weeks for the increasing pain that was unbearable, and they told me they couldn't find anything wrong, don't come back we don't treat chronic pain in the ER. Came to the point I couldn't walk and ambulance came to house to to take me to hospital,my systems were shutting down temp of 102after 6 weeks they found the problem and operated twice in the matter of a few days.Was on three antibiotics for 5 months Another surgery about a month ago.
Society doesn't owe me anything, its not a penalty, ITs LIFE.To be penalized is to be a victim. Soon I will be back to work, I'm grateful,although the Clev Clinic dropped the ball the other hospital did great. I'm not a victim of society, I consider myself fortunate. Its been rough, but big deal. I agree with Thomas Paine "Government at its best is a necessary evil"

[cobra bill]

I'm sorry to hear about your health problems, and I'm not saying that anyone is a victim, what I am trying to say is we are the wealthiest country on the face of the earth, if even Mexico can have healthcare for all why can't we! It doesn't have to be a government system, though it would do a lot for keeping the insurance companies in check, all I am saying is why can we not rise to the occasion and make it a better world for all.
And your point is valid, I do come down on corporations, if more people would do a little research though and see how destructive they have been to our society you would not be so willing to blindly stand behind any rhetoric they put out. if you think we as a nation should be strict constructionist, then let's go back to the way corporations were originally treated, they had to be revue every 2 years and if they were found to not be benefiting the country they lost their corporate status. ever since the supreme court allowed corporations the status as personhood, they have corrupted our society, why should they have all the same rights as a citizen, they are an entity, they never die and they have un-do influence over politicians, and they have stacked the deck in the supreme court to hold that power, read about the federalist society, they are all members, and there only role in life is to insure that the corporations never lose their status as persons, it's the only there that Justice Roberts did in his career, he was paid 2 million a year to fight against all that would attempted to change corporate status.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

See always a boogieman! so why have none of the other countries that have healthcare for all collapse, we have a long track record of how it's done, we either emulate it or improve on it, but either way it's time we do it.

Hey I want Fox news there, and the drugster, all of them! just shows the level of insanity and the corporate shills that they are.

Robin hood was a fairy tale, stop living in a dream world!

RH is ob's hero. The obummer is the one in the dream world.

It must be a great mystery why the socialist medicine countries ALL have a healthy private clinic industry. And why the US Canadian border, US side, is lined with health clinics. And liberals claim that Americans go overseas for treatment. A flat lie. The foreigners that can afford it come here. The only Americans that go to another country are terminal cases trying to extend their life. [understandable] But they DIE.

[cobra bill]

Not true, our own HMO's send patience overseas and even pay for room and board while they are there to have it done cheaper. I know a lot of people that have gone to Mexico for dental work, and yes you are correct if you are rich, this is a great place to get healthcare, when money is no option, you can buy anything, even good healthcare, but what about the rest of the poor slobs out there, throw them to the wolves cause they can't afford it here, remember we pay twice as much as any other nation and are only rated 37th and the insurance companies are spending 1.5 million a day to fight this, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know when Greed has surpassed compassion, in some countries it's against the law to charge for healthcare, they see it as a criminal act to profit from the suffering of others, but then those that are that greedy really are criminals,
cause it's what Jesus would do right?

[Joe Wicked]

One thing about ratings. They are done by people. People have biases. Quality health care is a great title, but what do they base quality on? Number of people getting sick? % of population getting sick? number if illness resulting in Death? %population resulting in Death? Statistics can be spun easily to mean what ever you want them to mean. This has been proven over and over again. Quality health care has so many facets that there is not a real way to rank 1 over the other. Does 1 sickness get a higher rank than another? Why?

Making a living (Profit) from HEALING is not making money off of suffering. You are working to end the suffering.

[cobra bill]

Well we have a higher infant mortality rate then all those other counties and a shorter life span, that's all the data I need dead is dead and it's hard to argue those numbers!

I never said a worker is not entitled to be paid for what they do. it's the greed of the corporate world that I am against even those countries that have a law against profiting from someone suffering still pay their doctors and hospital staff.

It's the same as war profiteering, it should be criminal!

[Roscoe]

I don't recall Reagan raising taxes on the middle class. I DO remember a 25% across the board tax cuts by Reagan which increased the amount received by the government by 100%. This was due to the fact that it was easier to pay taxes than to hide them in shelters. Classic Laffer Curve. Look up Kemp-Roth tax relief. Look up Laffer Curve.

Roscoe

[Roscoe]

US ranks 30th out of 191 countries with the difference between 30th and 1st is about 4 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

[Roscoe]

Cobra Bill,

What if you owned the company you work for? How would you feel then? Do I detect a hint of 'class struggle'? The poor never employed anyone. Can we hum a few bars of 'The Internationale'?

Roscoe

[cobra bill]

Yes I would, if I owned a corporation I would not be interested in the kind of greed that's shown today, as long as the company could sustain itself and pay all its employees well I would be very happy.
And yes we had the biggest tax increase in our history under Reagan, the largest portion being social security, and he used the surplus in that for the general fund, along with the retirement fund of all the government workers and that's why it seemed as though those tax cuts for the wealthy actually worked. it was the Reagan legacy project that has over the years re-written the history on him, just as they are doing with Bush.

I will look those up, thanks I am never afraid to research anything, and if I am wrong, I will admit it.

[cobra bill]

There are 32 countries that have a lower infant mortality rate then we do.

and look at some of those that are better than we are, it's just a little embarrassing!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ate_%282005%29

[Roscoe]

Do you mean to say that if you owned the company you would only be happy if the company sustained itself and paid it's employees? C'mon. Do you mean you would not wish the best for your family? A nice home? Strong investments for your future...for your wife if you die....for your children?

In order to have an open exchange of ideas and opinions we must be intellectually honest.

In our society there will always be scumbags. Whether they be wealthy or middle class....even poor. These are the negatives that we have to deal with. It should not be a condemnation of every business owner as greedy. Greed in the classic sense is good.

And I say again, when is the last time a poor person hired you?

Roscoe

[Roscoe]

I am a bit skeptical of the infant mortality rates. I think there are variables not separated in the numbers having to do with ethnicity, socio-economic levels, lifestyles, etc.

I do believe that nationalizing health care will not help but, rather, hurt all Americans.

Roscoe

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

Well we have a higher infant mortality rate then all those other counties and a shorter life span, that's all the data I need dead is dead and it's hard to argue those numbers!

I never said a worker is not entitled to be paid for what they do. it's the greed of the corporate world that I am against even those countries that have a law against profiting from someone suffering still pay their doctors and hospital staff.

It's the same as war profiteering, it should be criminal!

Actually it is easy to argue with those numbers. First off, the WHO is a liberal political body only very loosely concerned about actual medicine.
Second the US through the AMA counts every PREGNANCY as an infant and a person. Any miscarriage counts as an infant mortality and adds a person with 0 to our life expectancy, NO country ahead of us in the WHO rankings does either of those things.. Miscarriages are treated like the pregnancy never happened. Stillborns are treated like miscarriages. And only live born infants that pass away are counted as an infant mortality.

So quote all the money grubbing lying statistics you wish. The FACT still is that our northern border is filled with American clinics for Canadians. And there are few if any clinics for Americans just across the northern or southern borders. Plenty of drug sellers, ethical and illegal, but no clinics.
That is reality, not manipulated stats.

Our health care system does need repairs, but it is the best in the world. Liberals lie about that because they do not want to FIX it. They want to scrap it entirely and rebuild it completely under their control. obummers/liberal/democrat health care concepts [again, no actual PLAN to implement or to fund] is simply another in the unbroken chain of blank check power grabs.
It is akin to one's prized Cobra needing new plugs. obummers plan is, send the Cobra to the crusher and replace it with a rusty Pinto,,,,,,,,,FREE.
But everyone with a single surviving brain cell, just ONE, knows even the rusty Pinto isn't free-------------WORTHLESS but not free.

[cobra bill]

Actually it is easy to argue with those numbers. First off, the WHO is a liberal political body only very loosely concerned about actual medicine.
OK what the heck does being a liberal have to do with it? And why do you ASSUME a liberal would not have what's best for the country in mind

Second the US through the AMA counts every PREGNANCY as an infant and a person

well the's stats did not come from the AMA, and I did not site the CIA states that showed we had 41 countries ahead of us.

So quote all the money grubbing lying statistics you wish. The FACT still is that our northern border is filled with American clinics for Canadians

enlighten us then, show us your proof! And try any search engine and let us know what you come up with.

Our health care system does need repairs, but it is the best in the world.

Wow! You really aren't doing your home work, now are you!


Liberals lie about that because they do not want to FIX it.
They want to scrap it entirely and rebuild it completely under their control


Your blinded by your extreme animosity towards any one who does not see your view of how the world should be, there has been an awakening in this country and your intolerance and fear of change and new idea's that don't fit what corporate agenda you sold your soul too wants, you start name calling and spouting out how its all a lie Liberal this and liberal that! the sky is falling! Yeah, that's working real well for you isn't it?

[Roscoe]

Listen, comrades, have you forgotten
the lies we embraced,
the lies that offered us dugs
full of milk
to soothe our anger
and embalm our wisdom?
Have you forgotten, comrade,
the finger of scorn we pointed
at comrades who shook us from sleep
and told us a big job was waiting
and sang the wonders
of the workers' fatherland?
Gone now, all gone, brother,
gone now the lies
the beautiful lies
the red white and blue lies—
nothing left us but this hunger
nothing left us but this hate
nothing left us but these hands
and a job that's tired of waiting....

Nothing to lose anymore, comrade,
nothing to lose but our chains!

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

Actually it is easy to argue with those numbers. First off, the WHO is a liberal political body only very loosely concerned about actual medicine.
OK what the heck does being a liberal have to do with it? And why do you ASSUME a liberal would not have what's best for the country in mind

Second the US through the AMA counts every PREGNANCY as an infant and a person

well the's stats did not come from the AMA, and I did not site the CIA states that showed we had 41 countries ahead of us.

So quote all the money grubbing lying statistics you wish. The FACT still is that our northern border is filled with American clinics for Canadians

enlighten us then, show us your proof! And try any search engine and let us know what you come up with.

Our health care system does need repairs, but it is the best in the world.

Wow! You really aren't doing your home work, now are you!


Liberals lie about that because they do not want to FIX it.
They want to scrap it entirely and rebuild it completely under their control


Your blinded by your extreme animosity towards any one who does not see your view of how the world should be, there has been an awakening in this country and your intolerance and fear of change and new idea's that don't fit what corporate agenda you sold your soul too wants, you start name calling and spouting out how its all a lie Liberal this and liberal that! the sky is falling! Yeah, that's working real well for you isn't it?

You sir are a dangerous dupe. You ignorance and willingness to be herded by your masters is the greatest danger this nation has so far faced.

[cobra bill]

Originally Posted by Roscoe

Do you mean to say that if you owned the company you would only be happy if the company sustained itself and paid it's employees? C'mon. Do you mean you would not wish the best for your family? A nice home? Strong investments for your future...for your wife if you die....for your children?

In order to have an open exchange of ideas and opinions we must be intellectually honest.

In our society there will always be scumbags. Whether they be wealthy or middle class....even poor. These are the negatives that we have to deal with. It should not be a condemnation of every business owner as greedy. Greed in the classic sense is good.

And I say again, when is the last time a poor person hired you?

Roscoe

I am being honest, when I grew up a business owner or CEO made 20 times that of the workers, and they lived just fine, My parents are small business owners, took no more then that from the company, they grew it re-investing and they are living good lives, it didn't take money for them to have happyness. I see no reason to expect 30% growth in an industry to be healthy or necessary! Most small businesses people are on par with that of my parents, but they are not the ones that brought this country to its knees.

[csx4910]

Cobra Bill,
If the other countryies have such great healthcare and we are so corrupt, then move over there and live in england or Mexico for even 6 months and you would be begging to be able to move back to america and have the access to healthcare they don't. You think all of Mexico has healthcare and great benefits? if so then why are so many of them (thousands every day) flocking across our borders for a chance at a better life in America?
Ron