What a SURPRISE!

[Ronbo]

Well the blame seems to be solely born on the insurance industry, but lets look at this...

The claim is the ins. co's profits are too high at 20% which means 80% of your premimums are going to cost, right? (look at the profit margins of a software company sometime) Figure in 10~15% overhead which I doubt the government will eliminate (if not increase). I doubt it's this low, since almost any doctor will tell you they need at least two people to just file paperwork.

Even at say 25% less, the uninsured won't pay it, they can barely feed the kids they shouldn't have had. (God forbid we ask the mothers to keep their legs shut) I'd love for some news outlet to actually go down to the getto to highlite the majority of these "underprivlaged".

Medical Insurance is expensive because medical care has advanced and is much more costly than in the past. Not to mention the booming malpractice business. (something government hospitals can't be sued for) The hospitals rape the insurance co's as well to make up for indiginent care they have to provide by law. (hmm, government involvement? say it ain't so!)

Improving your lot in life is pretty much your resposibility, this is just another hand-out to kill incentive to improve yourself. Reality is the "born out of poverty" crowd usually just cranks out the next batch of useless humanity. Sucks, but there's no way around the truth.

Sink or swim has an undisputable success rate, these "social experiments" don't.

[Excaliber]

...if you want a job, then get off your lazy ass and go to work.

I hear that a lot around here, frankly it is one of the more stupid and irresponsible things I hear. Have you checked the unemployment figures lately? ALL of these unemployed folks are "lazy ass" and refuse to go to work? Get real.

Were talking about middle class folks here, mainstream America, not "ghetto mothers who can't keep their legs closed". Not welfare cases. Folks who woke up one morning and discovered they had a serious medical condition. Oh sure the emergency room won't turn them down, won't let them die THERE. They'll treat them and send them home for that. WHERE and HOW they get their medicine is their "lazy ass get a job" problem. Well the Government DOES have a moral responsibility to provide for these folks, it SHOULD be gaurenteed in some manner, some way for those who will SINK because they cannot SWIM. Man, that attitude is just so cold blooded...

[Ronbo]

Your fooling yourself if you think when unemployment goes back down it will have any effect on welfare. This program is just tossing more money at them. (Johnsonomics, or "just keep throwing money at it, maybe it'll go away")

Cold-blooded? Try dealing with the IRS sometime. The people wanted blood, the governmnet gave us Madoff. The rest of the crooks walked off with the cash, all under the watchfull eye of "government regulation", so obviously the government can't regulate sh!t.

So I'm supposed to make up for the inept who financed everything in sight and didn't save a dime? Funny how I'm supposed to tighten my belt a notch while the government leeches spend like there's no tomorrow. (which is looking more likely everyday) I already do this, I own a business. The government punishes me for actually employing people, you see I'm one of those "nasty corporations" you always hear about.

The purpose of government is to safegard freedom not anyone's finacial well-being. That's your own resposibility. You are also of course, free to fail. Oh wait, maybe you can get bailed out!

Being a government employee this is of course all beyond you, your just waiting for the 15th and 30th to roll around, right?

[Jamo]

Well damn it all to hell, Oinie...you sure stirred up a hornet's nest.

[Excaliber]

I'm not now nor ever have been a Government employee or a Union employee.

Until we get a grip on this fundamental attitude,

...if you want a job, then get off your lazy ass and go to work.

there will be no resolution to health care in any form!

Again, read this carefully, I'm talking about middle class American's, unemployed, no health coverage. Good hard working folks all their lives, with familys. Never wanted a handout, not looking for one now. Some lost their job for health reasons, most lost their job due to our current economic conditions. Aloha Airlines went bankrupt and folded a few months ago. Thousands lost their 20+ year career jobs overnight and never dreamed it could possibly happen to them. Thats just ONE company, in ONE town. Shame on you guys that would call these good folk lazy ass.

Do "we" owe them anything? Yeah, I think we do. In terms of at least giving them a helping hand to help themselves. Health insurance is far to expensive for most of them to even consider. We need a plan!

Well at least the bee's aint stinging to bad, yet... As Jamo has mentioned in the past, Tort Reform would go a long way to lowering costs.

[Jamo]

That's the problem, Ernie...the train's moving too fast and it's headed for a wreck. Tort reform is just one of many elements being ignored by the Administration and Pelosi/Reid. Even Lieberman is calling for the Administration to slow down.

[fastd]

Ex,

It is not that the other 15% don't have healthcare; they just may not have "adequate" healthcare. No one gets turned away from emergency rooms.

In addition, it is not clear that the number of uninsured is even close to the president's number of 47 million; depending on who you talk to it is closer to 15 million when you remove illegal aliens, people who can afford it but chose not to get it, etc.

Another reality is that, if/when the government lowers the quality of healthcare for everyone, more people on balance will be denied quality healthcare, and more people are likely to "die" (earlier) than before.

You blame the system for not giving health insurance to everybody now; what you are missing is that the healthcare system got so good over the last 50 years, that is saving so many more people now than it would have if a public option was instituted 50 years ago. People are surviving cancer, AIDS/HIV, luekemia, because of technical innovations and the high quality of care provided in the US. That's another reason why people come here from Canada, UK, France, etc. - they have to wait for their healthcare and when they get it, it is not as good as in the USA. You think that adding everyone to the health care pool is going to automatically increase or maintain the quality healthcare for everyone? By definition, it will not. The Government plan will definitely ration services; Obama is spending money at an unprecedented rate; Medicare/Caid is in the whole trillions of dollars; the CBO said there is very little cost savings likely to come out of this. If you take away incentives (which the Government option definitely does) for R&D to create cures for cancer, etc. you will be killing more people on balance over time. You will look back 20-30 years from now, at your kids and grandkids and have to apologize for not seeing the future clearly enough for them. Just because you felt sorry for the inadequately insured now...

The liberal argument that America is so rich that it can afford to give healthcare is bogus; we are trillions of dollars in debt. Sure it would be greater is everyone were rich, everyone had free healthcare, free rent, free food, free entertainment. The problem with the "free for everyone" arguments is that they do not work; it is not practical, we cannot afford it even if you take every last penny from every "rich" person out there. Please focus on ideas that can work.

[VRM]

I agree with Jamo - this train is going too fast and is headed for a wreck.

Our system is not all that bad, but there are some fixes to be made. I agree with Ernie that a lot of people who are out of work right now are not lazy-ass types. I would like to figure out a way to cover their medical until they find another job. Something like unemployment benefits, but that also has a time limit. It will not be free, but it will be cheaper than what is being proposed now.
And for you employers out there who will complain about another cost, well, that person is making you money. You would not have that person there if they didn't. If every person I hired would clear $5 per year for me I would hire 50,000 tomorrow. Seriously, don't bother - I really dislike people who complain about their good fortune.

Tort reform is another one that needs to be fixed, but I think it is safe as is for at least the next 3 years or so. I also wonder if the malpractise insurers would actually lower the rates if the malpractise costs dropped.

Drug costs are also too high because drug companies have a great game going with patents and licensing. I would like to see cash awards for cures for major diseases, but then 'we the people' would own the rights. I am leery of government having that sort of control, but the drug companies have proven that they are usually not willing to play an honest game. Anybody have any better solutions to the high cost of drugs?

There are also efficiencies that we can make using high tech. My own local doctors office recently went to using small laptops to enter patient data - test results, digital x-ray images, and everything else can be stored in a patients file. And you don't have to worry about poor doctor handwriting because everything is typed. My doc says he loves it, and it has cut down on the time he spends on paperwork.

And for those GOP types - you should have seen this coming. Clinton tried to do this 15 years ago. You had Congress for over a decade, including some significant overlap time with a Republican president, and you did nothing but let the problems get worse.

And for you DNC types - WTF are you thinking!?! Bush was pretty terrible, but that does not mean that everything that existed during his administration needs to be thrown out. You need to actually troubleshoot the problems and identify what is broken and fix it. This is a knee-jerk reaction to the last 8 years, and it is not a good one.

Steve

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by VRM

I agree with Jamo - this train is going too fast and is headed for a wreck.

Our system is not all that bad, but there are some fixes to be made. I agree with Ernie that a lot of people who are out of work right now are not lazy-ass types. I would like to figure out a way to cover their medical until they find another job. Something like unemployment benefits, but that also has a time limit. It will not be free, but it will be cheaper than what is being proposed now.
And for you employers out there who will complain about another cost, well, that person is making you money. You would not have that person there if they didn't. If every person I hired would clear $5 per year for me I would hire 50,000 tomorrow. Seriously, don't bother - I really dislike people who complain about their good fortune.

Tort reform is another one that needs to be fixed, but I think it is safe as is for at least the next 3 years or so. I also wonder if the malpractise insurers would actually lower the rates if the malpractise costs dropped.

Drug costs are also too high because drug companies have a great game going with patents and licensing. I would like to see cash awards for cures for major diseases, but then 'we the people' would own the rights. I am leery of government having that sort of control, but the drug companies have proven that they are usually not willing to play an honest game. Anybody have any better solutions to the high cost of drugs?

There are also efficiencies that we can make using high tech. My own local doctors office recently went to using small laptops to enter patient data - test results, digital x-ray images, and everything else can be stored in a patients file. And you don't have to worry about poor doctor handwriting because everything is typed. My doc says he loves it, and it has cut down on the time he spends on paperwork.

And for those GOP types - you should have seen this coming. Clinton tried to do this 15 years ago. You had Congress for over a decade, including some significant overlap time with a Republican president, and you did nothing but let the problems get worse.

And for you DNC types - WTF are you thinking!?! Bush was pretty terrible, but that does not mean that everything that existed during his administration needs to be thrown out. You need to actually troubleshoot the problems and identify what is broken and fix it. This is a knee-jerk reaction to the last 8 years, and it is not a good one.

Steve

There already is it's called COBRA, which since you obviously haven't been keeping up with current events, now costs 65% less.

You employer pays 50% of your unemployment claim (as well as the "premiums")...

My employees get paid, I didn't when the profits weren't there so don't preach to me or any other employer. To hear you talk hiring an employee is a gaurenteed money maker, I assure you it is not. There are two flaws with your logic the employer has to make sure the work is there and that the employee actually does it. If things don't go well your stuck with keeping them on the payroll or laying them off. In either senario the employer is paying for them to do nothing.

Look I don't have a problem helping people out that have hit on hard times but the other half that have always been leeches need to be cooked down into bio-fuel. If the government would get off our back we could take care of this ourselves.

In good times the line is "We're doing so well, everone should help out the needy". In bad times it's "We're doing so bad, we need to help out the needy".

I am sick of the "will nots" being labeled "have nots", you find a way to weed these parasites off the government teet I'm all ears.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

There already is it's called COBRA, which since you obviously haven't been keeping up with current events, now costs 65% less.

You employer pays 50% of your unemployment claim (as well as the "premiums")...

My employees get paid, I didn't when the profits weren't there so don't preach to me or any other employer. To hear you talk hiring an employee is a gaurenteed money maker, I assure you it is not. There are two flaws with your logic the employer has to make sure the work is there and that the employee actually does it. If things don't go well your stuck with keeping them on the payroll or laying them off. In either senario the employer is paying for them to do nothing.

Look I don't have a problem helping people out that have hit on hard times but the other half that have always been leeches need to be cooked down into bio-fuel. If the government would get off our back we could take care of this ourselves.

In good times the line is "We're doing so well, everone should help out the needy". In bad times it's "We're doing so bad, we need to help out the needy".

I am sick of the "will nots" being labeled "have nots", you find a way to weed these parasites off the government teet I'm all ears.

Ronbo,
I do not like the parasites either. I would gradually take money out of welfare and put it into job training. If you want to eat you will have to learn how to do something other than watch gameshows. I would gradually unfund welfare so that they would see their 'standard of living' reduced and eventually eliminated.

The Cobra change is a band-aid that will help some.

How would you 'take care of this yourselves' if government would get off your back?

No, hiring an employee is not a sure-fire money maker. My point was that if you can make just $5 for every employee after all your costs then you are ahead of the game. Hopefully you will do better than $5. There are also times when you will be doing very well. You opted for a higher risk/reward than your employees. That is the choice you made - don't whine about it when the going gets tough. If you don't like it, or it is no longer worth your effort, then stop doing it.
What employers pay for unemployment is part of the compensation/benefits for that employee. If that overall cost is not offset by what that employee will be generating then you should not hire them. Don't pretend you are doing employees a favour - they are there to make/save you money. You deserve to get a days work for a days pay, but it is your job to give them the work.

And I'm staying an extra hour to offset the time that I have been goofing around on CC. One of the drawbacks to actually having a work ethic I guess.

Steve

[cobra de capell]

Perhaps it's not worth getting done at all - just tweak the current system.

[Excaliber]

That might indeed be the solution.

Note:
I'm not blaming the Government or anyone else for our current or future health care issues. Finger pointing does little to improve a process. I'm just looking for answers for a serious problem.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

Perhaps it's not worth getting done at all - just tweak the current system.

Yep. We should identify specific problems and fix them rather than redesign the whole thing because there are some flaws.

Mods, no - CdC and I are not best buds now. The law of averages dictates that given enough posts that even he might get one right once in a while.

Steve

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by VRM

Yep. We should identify specific problems and fix them rather than redesign the whole thing because there are some flaws.

Mods, no - CdC and I are not best buds now. The law of averages dictates that given enough posts that even he might get one right once in a while.

Steve

...and some might say the same for you.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Jamo

...and some might say the same for you.

True, but at least my stuff is written by me, and not copied/pasted.

[Ronbo]

Steve it's not whining, but when the government (and the media) plays people off against the employer constantly...

I'm doing my part, my employees have medical insurance. (100% funded by yours truly) I could just pay the employees to get their own insurance (for a lot less than what I pay) but I'm sure you can guess how many of them would actually get it. (maybe half) If this $1000/yr penalty (per employee) for providing private ins. instead of the "public option" makes it to law, guess this will show you where the government's head is. My insurance agent would tell you how rare 100% funded insurance is nowadays.

I'm not going to win any medals for doing this, I just don't like the idea of my people not having insurance. But your right it's my choice.

What pisses me off is this "system" of hiding all this expense by dumping it on the businesses. Since businesses can't vote they shouldn't be taxed, period. When people get their paycheck and see 50% gone maybe it'll sink in. A business's only option is to fund lobbying to keep the politicians from raping them even more than they do now. I'm sure you can recall how lobbiests are reflected in the press.

I'd love it even better if the IRS and state came down to the store to collect it personally every payday.

[Excaliber]

I'm glad to see your providing insurance for your employees. If your business was in Hawaii you wouldn't have a choice, it's the law. You wouldn't have an option to pay a penalty or a tax to get out of it, period. That law is working well in Hawaii and I think it would work well on a Federal level.

[Jamo]

We pay 100% of the premiums and deductibles for everyone...full family coverage. If I was providing what Obama has in mind, I'd cut that benefit down and instead start a funeral plan.

[bomelia]

Earnie, you are one scary guy. I never thought I would be hearing stuff like this said out loud and with so much confidence.

Earnie, you go take care of you, and I will go take care me and mine. And stay out of my effing pockets.

As for me, I intend to oppose anything that does not deal with tort reform and insurance deregulation (cross border competition).

OMG.

We may all be screwed now.

Mike

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Subsidizing is called "taxes" and yeah I think it needs to be done fairly. The question then is, "What is fair?" I've heard some estimates that suggest a person with a taxable income of $450K a year will see an increase of a $1,000 a year. About 70 or 80 a month? I think that's reasonable myself, to help, as Leona Hemsley called them, the "little people".

I think the primary aspect of this thread may be: A public option health care plan will make it impossible for a private/for profit health care plan to compete in the market. Therefore, the only viable option will be a Government administered, backed, run, setup (pick one or more) plan that would drive the independants out of business. Hog wash say I! Those private plans will flourish with folks that can afford them. Those plans that can't cut the mustard will go away.

While I'm fundamentally opposed to "more Government" it's clear that we have to have more over sight of key Big Business shops. Wall Street cannot regulate itself based on an honor system, nor can any big business. Government intervention/control was/is warranted in the current economic conditions for many of these institutions.

I'll grant you this, it couldn't be a worse time to push for a health care program, what with the deficit and all that. We should wait until 2016 or so when Social Security goes bankrupt and then try it again when were really really broke!

[bomelia]

BTW, you all know what the problem with folks who live in Shangrala type places (Hawaii, California, etc) is that its too DAMN expensive to live there for many of them. Rather than move to a place of lower costs, people insist the the government should help them. And they do! Because who wants to lose voters?

The reason our free market system does not work is because we do not have one anymore. And after this? It will be all but dead. The good news it that with its death, the Government will soon run out of money to steal. And maybe, just maybe, smarter folks than politicians will finally restore sanity.

Keep on reading Atlas Shrugged Earnie, maybe some of it will sink in. Have you ever read it?

Doubt it.

Mike