stroked small blocks in the race cars?

[MAStuart]

My 1964 Mickey Thompson catalog lists stroker cranks for 289's.

Jim did your engine builder put the scare on you to upgrade? Depending on your tune you would be fine up into the lower 500 Hp range. Now if you were going 24 hour racing.....get a better block. I have an Jan 67 hotrod artical on the gurney eagle engines. Dan said that they had made as much as 448Hp with 271 HP cast iron heads on a 325 inch engine. So they were making them big before 67! Also the big numbers were 506 HP from a 289 with the gurney eagle heads on gas with webers. So they were making big number way back before 67.

How did your engine look wheen they took it apart? Any problems? There is a guy out east that has a progam to cnc port 289 heads that guys have been making in the 425 to 450 range with. I think they are also remaking the C6FE heads and cnc porting them. There is nothing like a real 289 making big power. I really like them when they use a factory 289 block ,heads and crank. Yes with aftermarket blocks and heads and cranks they might make a little more power. But I dont think they are as cool.

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

My 1964 Mickey Thompson catalog lists stroker cranks for 289's.

Jim did your engine builder put the scare on you to upgrade? Depending on your tune you would be fine up into the lower 500 Hp range. Now if you were going 24 hour racing.....get a better block. I have an Jan 67 hotrod artical on the gurney eagle engines. Dan said that they had made as much as 448Hp with 271 HP cast iron heads on a 325 inch engine. So they were making them big before 67! Also the big numbers were 506 HP from a 289 with the gurney eagle heads on gas with webers. So they were making big number way back before 67.

How did your engine look wheen they took it apart? Any problems? There is a guy out east that has a progam to cnc port 289 heads that guys have been making in the 425 to 450 range with. I think they are also remaking the C6FE heads and cnc porting them. There is nothing like a real 289 making big power. I really like them when they use a factory 289 block ,heads and crank. Yes with aftermarket blocks and heads and cranks they might make a little more power. But I dont think they are as cool.

Great info! The C6FE heads are repopped by Curt Vogt, who now owns the rights. If memory serves me correctly, they are extremely expensive, like $4,000.00 for a set of raw/unmachined castings and approaching $10,000.00 for a full-up, race-prepared set. His company, Cobra Automotive, does a lot of Cobra motors and vintage racing. You can call them, if you are interested, to get accurate pricing. He has a Mustang that is killer, but I think it runs in a different class than stock.


Who is the person porting 289 heads on the east coast? Is it Curt's group? How much does it cost?

[1795]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

My 1964 Mickey Thompson catalog lists stroker cranks for 289's.

Jim did your engine builder put the scare on you to upgrade? Depending on your tune you would be fine up into the lower 500 Hp range. Now if you were going 24 hour racing.....get a better block. I have an Jan 67 hotrod artical on the gurney eagle engines. Dan said that they had made as much as 448Hp with 271 HP cast iron heads on a 325 inch engine. So they were making them big before 67! Also the big numbers were 506 HP from a 289 with the gurney eagle heads on gas with webers. So they were making big number way back before 67.

How did your engine look wheen they took it apart? Any problems? There is a guy out east that has a progam to cnc port 289 heads that guys have been making in the 425 to 450 range with. I think they are also remaking the C6FE heads and cnc porting them. There is nothing like a real 289 making big power. I really like them when they use a factory 289 block ,heads and crank. Yes with aftermarket blocks and heads and cranks they might make a little more power. But I dont think they are as cool.

The engine builder was not trying to sell me on things that I did not need. When he had the engine disassembled he called me and had me come look at things. The block was going to need to be rebored and it was already .030 over; I did not want to risk going to .040 over as that starts to increase the risk of failure running at high rpms for extended periods as the water jackets get awful thin. It's one thing on a street engine or drag strip, but another thing on a road race engine. I do run our long sessions at times and that puts a stress on the engine.

Cobra Automotive (Curt Vogt) makes some nice engines, but at $30-$35 K they are a little out of my league, especially when after 20 hours you have to tear them down and replace parts. If it were a street engine that you probably would never tear down again, it's one thing, but every two years that is a lot of money.

I am trying to approximate what they do without the expense. Will not be at that level, but a little closer is good enough for me. Cobra Automotive uses Dart blocks, except for their FIA legal engines. Given that I am never going to be FIA legal, what they do for regular vintage is good enough for me.

I have met the guy in charge of their engine shop and like him, a real nice guy. I lost his card and cannot recall his name. We have talked a few times at vintage races.

My engine builder made his suggestions, but has left all decisions up to me. I have done my research and made my decisions. At this point, I want an engine that I can count on to be reliable. The crank needed work and when I built my first engine I would have gone with a forged steel crank, but they were not available. If I waited any longer Scat would not have been able to do this one for quite a while as their supplies were drying up.

Jim

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

Paul I dont know who owns the rights to the C6Fe casting . I would have thought it would be ford. Do you have any idea how Curt would of ended up owning the rights to the Ford C6FE castings? I believe tthe guy that does the cnc work is Mike Carlquest. I was under the impression he is the guy that does the engine work for Cobra automotive and the guy that was having the heads done. I could be wrong and be just spreading rumors. Anyhow i know he has a cnc program to do Gurney Eagle heads . He said he can pick up a lot of flow over the way they wer sold over the counter. He also did the small block ford head that was in the last engine masters that got 2 place.

That is an interesting story, Stuart. This is my understanding. When Ford pulled the plug on racing, they got rid of all the racing stuff, including designs, to Holman and Moody. The rights were transferred. They held onto the stuff for a while, but their business was waning as the oil embargo happened and with other economic impacts they began to auction some of it off. Curt bought the lot that contained the C6FE head designs/rights. By the way, this is the original GT40 head of yesteryear. The information is out there in the ether, and if you search around you will find it posted. I am sure that there are people on here that know much more about it, so they can chime in to make any corrections. Actually, I spoke with Curt a couple of hours ago. They do a run of ten or so sets every once in a while. Demand is low, due to the limited market, which makes them expensive. I am under the impression that this is the best Ford casting there is for the small blocks, but even ported it still pales in comparison to today's aftermarket aluminum heads.

Originally Posted by 1795

The engine builder was not trying to sell me on things that I did not need. When he had the engine disassembled he called me and had me come look at things. The block was going to need to be rebored and it was already .030 over; I did not want to risk going to .040 over as that starts to increase the risk of failure running at high rpms for extended periods as the water jackets get awful thin. It's one thing on a street engine or drag strip, but another thing on a road race engine. I do run our long sessions at times and that puts a stress on the engine.

Cobra Automotive (Curt Vogt) makes some nice engines, but at $30-$35 K they are a little out of my league, especially when after 20 hours you have to tear them down and replace parts. If it were a street engine that you probably would never tear down again, it's one thing, but every two years that is a lot of money.

I am trying to approximate what they do without the expense. Will not be at that level, but a little closer is good enough for me. Cobra Automotive uses Dart blocks, except for their FIA legal engines. Given that I am never going to be FIA legal, what they do for regular vintage is good enough for me.

I have met the guy in charge of their engine shop and like him, a real nice guy. I lost his card and cannot recall his name. We have talked a few times at vintage races.

My engine builder made his suggestions, but has left all decisions up to me. I have done my research and made my decisions. At this point, I want an engine that I can count on to be reliable. The crank needed work and when I built my first engine I would have gone with a forged steel crank, but they were not available. If I waited any longer Scat would not have been able to do this one for quite a while as their supplies were drying up.

Jim

John is the guy in charge of the engine shop at Cobra Automotive... very knowledgeable guy, and he seems very nice, as well! Forgot his last name.

Is Scat offset grinding a forged steel 302 crank for you, to get it destroked to 2.87", Jim? Why don't you go with a stroker unit now that you know they ran the larger displacement? Free cubes!

[blykins]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

My 1964 Mickey Thompson catalog lists stroker cranks for 289's.

Jim did your engine builder put the scare on you to upgrade? Depending on your tune you would be fine up into the lower 500 Hp range. Now if you were going 24 hour racing.....get a better block. I have an Jan 67 hotrod artical on the gurney eagle engines. Dan said that they had made as much as 448Hp with 271 HP cast iron heads on a 325 inch engine. So they were making them big before 67! Also the big numbers were 506 HP from a 289 with the gurney eagle heads on gas with webers. So they were making big number way back before 67.

How did your engine look wheen they took it apart? Any problems? There is a guy out east that has a progam to cnc port 289 heads that guys have been making in the 425 to 450 range with. I think they are also remaking the C6FE heads and cnc porting them. There is nothing like a real 289 making big power. I really like them when they use a factory 289 block ,heads and crank. Yes with aftermarket blocks and heads and cranks they might make a little more power. But I dont think they are as cool.

If you can find a nice factory block, they would last at those levels all day long. Older blocks were much more stable/stout than the newer 302/5.0 blocks.

I put bronze lifter bore bushings in to put them to factory spec and also install billet main caps. I personally would have no issue running them up to .060" overbore. I also use a lot longer rod than what guys typically run, which requires a custom piston and rod setup.

RPM used to make steel 289 cranks but RPM quit making a lot of crankshafts last year because they didn't know what the tariffs would do.

A well ported 289 head will flow about 200-220 cfm, depending on the casting, while keeping the port volume in check. We convert them to 7mm or 5/16" valve stem size. That supports 450 hp easily.

[MAStuart]

RPM's site still has them listed but trying to get one might be a different story. I am not sure what Mike gets to run his cnc program on a set of 65 289 heads . I have read that they were in the 230 CFM range with plenty of port wall left. He also stated that the race ported C6FE heads were good for another 20 HP over the 289 heads . Now if the price of the C6FE heads as posted in one of the above post is true I am not so sure that if a very good value other that bragging rights about how much your heads cost. But then again I dont have deep pockets. I have holes in mine!

[blykins]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

RPM's site still has them listed but trying to get one might be a different story. I am not sure what Mike gets to run his cnc program on a set of 65 289 heads . I have read that they were in the 230 CFM range with plenty of port wall left. He also stated that the race ported C6FE heads were good for another 20 HP over the 289 heads . Now if the price of the C6FE heads as posted in one of the above post is true I am not so sure that if a very good value other that bragging rights about how much your heads cost. But then again I dont have deep pockets. I have holes in mine!

I wouldn't be concerned about the port wall thickness, I'd be concerned about the port volume. A hogged out port, even if it flows a lot, would make for a slugglish 289 on the street. On the race course, it would take a bit of rpm to make it efficient.

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by blykins

A well ported 289 head will flow about 200-220 cfm, depending on the casting, while keeping the port volume in check. We convert them to 7mm or 5/16" valve stem size. That supports 450 hp easily.

Originally Posted by blykins

I wouldn't be concerned about the port wall thickness, I'd be concerned about the port volume. A hogged out port, even if it flows a lot, would make for a slugglish 289 on the street. On the race course, it would take a bit of rpm to make it efficient.

Do you send those heads out or do the porting in house, Brent? Are we talking about the same porting in both of your quotes above? In other words, if you port for the top quote, do you end up with the bottom quote, or can you have good street performance with the top quote? Reading between the lines, I think the latter good street performance, but just checking.