stroked small blocks in the race cars?

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

Ed not sure if your pointing your finger at me. So I am not sure how to reply to that. But if so I think you are taking something the wrong way.

I think of this thread as a bench racing session between a bunch of friends. Not sure anyone has asked any big speed secrets.

No one person in particular and everyone in general. The guy (Brent) is involved in a for profit venture building these engines. There is a large capital investment in equipment and tooling to operate this type of business. He is attempting to be a good guy and entertain questions about the builds that are possible.

Like he said, he has 11 engines in the cue to be built. One engine is a lot of work 11 for a one man shop is impressive no matter how you look at it. The time to participate on a web site is significant — if you want to give good answers to questions.

Questions that delve onto the strategy of parts selection and the performance matching considerations behind behind them dig into the essence of the value add that he provides and is compensated for.

I nothing else give the guy a break so he has time to devote to his engine building for his cash paying customers rather than beating on a keyboard answering secret sauce type questions for non-customers. What is happening in this thread is not bench racing. Bench racing is what I did at the track last weekend or in response to someone's query why I did what I did and what I liked about the outcome. Digging in on component design and specs for engine variations is getting into the building side of the street, not the bench racing side.

If you really have a keen interest in the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) design and operating principles side of the street then consider buying some real books that dig deep into the how come and why for side of the subject matter, to better understand the dynamics involved.

Those books will not be the $25 SA Books kind of stuff although some of those are not bad. They are however the shallow end of the swimming pool. The books I am pointing you at will be in the deep end of the swimming pool and look and cost like John Heywood's Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals 2E which you can pick up on Amazon for somewhere around $100 or Randy Beikmann's Physics for Gearheads which while more about vehicle dynamics and a lighter read, will still stretch you a bit.

The knowledge that is being solicited from Brent comes from lots of study and years of real time hands on experience. It is the essence of the guys business and the value add he brings to his engine builds for his cash paying customers. It is minimally impolite to ask for him to give it away for free. If you feel good about the man and his work product go buy it, don't try to mimic it.

If you just want to learn then take the time and effort to educate yourself in the disciplines involved. A good place to start would be either of those two books. They will both go deeper than you might want but the answers and why they are the answers are there for the inquiring minds.


Ed

[MAStuart]

Ed I understand what your saying. Brent is good at what he is doing. Like he said no one is twisting his arm. By his willingness to answer questions here makes me more willing to have him do some work for me. I am also sure he get work from others because of his willingness to talk about things.

As far as the books and thing you mention. We are way past that stuff. We have had a copy of Internal combustion Engine fundamentals for a long time. My son knows John. My son is doing a disertation for work on his PHD on full 3 dimensional multi physics computational fluid dynamics. The computer program took 55 hours to run 3 cycles or 6 rotations of a 3 cylinder engine. This is just the start of it.

One of my hobbies is scratch building multi cylinder engines. This includes making any patterns and castings plus any machine work involved. We have the equipment to do just about anything you could imagine to a small block ford. I think we could go as far as making a billet 289 block on our old machining center. We are not in the business of building engines for others. We have all the equipment for our hobbies. If someone asked for us to build one we would send him to Brent.

From my point of view the whole thread is bench racing. Also there are very few real secrets most have been around for years.

[1795]

Just read an informative article on camshaft design.

https://elgincams.com/wp-content/upl...Dema_Elgin.pdf

Have you guys heard of him previously?

Jim

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by 1795

Just read an informative article on camshaft design.

https://elgincams.com/wp-content/upl...Dema_Elgin.pdf

Have you guys heard of him previously?

Jim

Elgin goes back to the earliest days of hot ridding.

Ed

[blykins]

Originally Posted by eschaider

Elgin goes back to the earliest days of hot ridding.

Ed

Yep, and a lot has changed since then too, although the mathematics are still generally the same.

I like at the end how it talks about how "lofting the valve" is bad. If it weren't for lofting the valve, most NHRA stock eliminator guys wouldn't be competitive.

[1795]

There was a real nice discussion on his webpage elgincams.com in which he further discusses the nuances of cam design and use in an internal combustion engine, I was not able to copy the link. He compares valve overlap in race engines as opposed to street engines and how long duration of overlap may be fine in one and not the other. There is also an nice discussion about the effect of too much overlap on exhaust gases and how they may replace some of the fuel mixture and also have a detrimental effect on heat dissipation.

I was a little confused at first because there is Elgin Industries which Dema Elgin started and then sold to it's employees, which tends to make budget cams from what I have read. Then there is Elgin Cams, which is the new business that he started focusing more on custom and race cams from what I read.

Jim

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by 1795

There was a real nice discussion on his webpage elgincams.com in which he further discusses the nuances of cam design and use in an internal combustion engine, I was not able to copy the link. He compares valve overlap in race engines as opposed to street engines and how long duration of overlap may be fine in one and not the other. There is also an nice discussion about the effect of too much overlap on exhaust gases and how they may replace some of the fuel mixture and also have a detrimental effect on heat dissipation.

I was a little confused at first because there is Elgin Industries which Dema Elgin started and then sold to it's employees, which tends to make budget cams from what I have read. Then there is Elgin Cams, which is the new business that he started focusing more on custom and race cams from what I read.

Jim

This article? https://elgincams.com/camshafts/

[1795]

Originally Posted by blykins

Yep, and a lot has changed since then too, although the mathematics are still generally the same.

I like at the end how it talks about how "lofting the valve" is bad. If it weren't for lofting the valve, most NHRA stock eliminator guys wouldn't be competitive.

Brent,

Do you think that he is referring to potential damage to the valve train via valve loft, or potential power loss? If his complaint is due to potential damage to the valve train, that does on the short term provide an increase in power, I can see why NHRA racers would go with that trade off. The engine is rebuilt more often and the damaged parts are then replaced, as opposed to a street performance car in which the person hopes to not have to build the engine.

Jim

[blykins]

Not sure on that one. It certainly makes more power when it's "engineered loft". On a stock eliminator, you're limited to factory valve lifts. Some of those back in the 60's were .450-.490". You can open the valve a lot further than that with some carefully designed parts, but when measured at inspection, it looks stock.