correct 289 COBRA "impact" / "ray brown" seat belts

[csx700?]

just to clear up the mystery
the proper seat belts for a 289 cobra is the "impact" brand that was manufactured by "ray brown" (see photo of tag). the proper plating on these belts was a cad plating (dull silver, not chrome), the proper leather pad was of natural leather (brown) and the pad was secured to the link side of the hardware using 2 piece rivets (copper). not trying to start a gripe session but if you contact jim cowles or look in the rinsey mills book this can be confirmed...............

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by csx700?

just to clear up the mystery ... not trying to start a gripe session but if you contact jim cowles or look in the rinsey mills book this can be confirmed...............

Presenting you input does not mean replies are a gripe session.

Several things need to be clarified and since you have researched this..perhaps you have the answers.

I have seen variations to indicate that there were several configs of the belts.
The cad-plating seems to be uniform. The leather color...and which side the leather was installed on...seems to be a variable.

Attached is a pic of original belts in unrestored car, showing black leather, not natural.

All belts had the Ray Brown label...did all belts have the large Impact label?

[Dan Case]

March 2018 Update: Since 2007 more examples of unrestored cars with original belts in the lengths Cobras used have been available for study. (The assemblies for Cobras are significantly shorter than required for a Mustang chassis for example.)

Intact assemblies or sets have been tagged as being manufactured under the IMPACT® name by Ray Brown Automotive. Jim Cowles sells an excellent replacement label. Exact details of belt assembly construction varied between 1963 and 1964 when most belts were made so far. Between “early” and “late” belts it seems everything but the anchor bolt hooks and label design changed. Different versions of parts and materials has made detailed restorations of original cars more challenging. Example: Assemblies like a CSX25xx chassis might have gotten wouldn’t make sense for a chassis finished in the first quarter of 1963.

The labels of assembled belts got a MMM-DD-YYYY date code ink stamped on them. Based on the few I have seen still with the car they started with only a few production runs were made, i.e. there was a just a few dates apparently. No I have not started a registry of chassis and belt assembly dates.

Because of variations in parts and assemblies “seat belts” is just too complicated for a simple discussion. Of the cars I have participated in the restoration of we did a case by case study to determine what chassis completed into running cars around them were fitted with.

That’s Cobras. Offered as examples only, 427 Cobra wise a very low mile unrestored CSX30xx had Cummings & Sander, Inc. 1966 belts and unrestored CSX33xxchassis had CS (Cummings & Sander) IMPACT® name belts. The serious 427 Cobra restorers that I know are not looking for Ray Brown anything seat belt wise.

[computerworks]

...and if you hang a sec, I'll post a pic of Dan's belts.

[computerworks]

Dan's belts

[Dan Case]

I wasn’t there in 1963 of course but I have worked for one of the world’s largest manufacturers just short of 30 years now. Here are scenarios that play out dozens of times a year for us.

First there is a need for a part or assembly. We find what is available in the market. We usually pick the one that is (a) recognized as the best and (b) the largest capacity supplier. Picking the best and largest keeps warrantee concerns to a minimum and large companies usually won’t fold up and strand you.

Second we enter into a short term supplier customer relationship no matter what the cost is.

Third, almost before the ink on the supplier contract has dried we start hunting lower cost alternatives. Here is where it starts getting messy.

1 ) We might just find another product from the same supplier.
2) We might find a similar part from the supplier’s competitors(s).
3) Or we might cut a deal where the supplier provides private label parts, parts without their identification, parts that are identical functionally and quality wise. Private label parts can cut costs 20-30%.
4) If we don’t need things like Mil Spec certifications we ask to get that dropped off for lower cost.

In this third bullet, the customer just sees one service part number. At the engineering level they have just one need to fill. All kinds of combinations in-between will get the job done but would give anybody on the outside a hard time sorting out what is what.

The fourth common scenario is one supplier can not or will not for any reason supply everything you require. In this case you get what you can wherever you can. We have “1” plastic part we use 37,000 a day of. No one supplier can or will supply them all so we have “2” suppliers. There are “2” plastic resins approved for use and both suppliers are free to use either, usually price and availability drives this. The service parts group just has “1” service part number so customers see only “1” part.
1 = number of parts engineering sees
1 = number of parts service organization sees
4 = number of parts our assembly operators see, and because the resins are slightly different and molds are different they try very hard to keep only a single version in any of our units heading out the door.
If you try to compare your machine to one made hours earlier or later you might notice your parts are not exactly like your buddy’s. If you get one service part it may or may not exactly match the “originals”.

The fifth most likely scenario is to use parts or assemblies from two or more suppliers at the same time to keep them competing on cost and quality. We do this a lots and it means many millions of dollars in savings a year for us.

Finally, as a sixth change method the design is just made lower cost just for the sake of lowering manufacturing costs.

I for one can see how so many variations exist in old cars.

[sportyworty]

65/66 GT 350's are chrome finished, later in 66 were impact tagged. No clue on CSX cars.

[computerworks]

Right...Both my early '66 GT350's were Ray Brown-tagged...no Impact label

[1985 CCX]

Was PYROTECT an oiriginal supplier at any point in the 60'S or were they a remake in the 70's and 80's?

Thanks guys for the information!

Great discussion! Jeff

[csx700?]

computerworks
1) the photo of the belts that are in the photo with the red seats appear to be brown (natural) not black as you say? they appear to be the correct pieces but if the pad is black i would be suspect as to the leather having been replaced at some point, no copper rivets either? unless the supplier had indeed used a black pad, anything is posible.
2) the secont photo appears to posibly be from a 427 car. the leather is on the opposite side and is black in color.

dan case
you are correect in stating that military hardware was used to make the sert belts. there were many suppliers of th hardware so there could be some variation in the parts supplied to "ray brown" or "impact".

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by computerworks

Attached is a pic of original belts in unrestored car, showing black leather, not natural.

CW: Unless my monitor color is way off, the color of the belt leather in your picture is natural.

[csx700?]

A-snake
thanks for confirming the color of the leather pad in the photo, i thought my eyes were going bad..........

[Nedsel]

Ron - would it be correct to guess the shot of the red seat with the belt over it is Hank Williams' 2227? The red looks more like nauaghyde than leather and that fits his car.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

The red looks more like nauaghyde than leather and that fits his car.

It certainly doesn't look like 40+ year old leather.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Ron - would it be correct to guess the shot of the red seat with the belt over it is Hank Williams' 2227? The red looks more like nauaghyde than leather and that fits his car.

Right...that is Hank's car.

[csx700?]

hi nedsel
thank you for joining this conversation...........you had a chance to inspect the above belts (my photos) in person at "only yesterday"

[FIA-ERA]

Thanks csx700 for clearing up any mysteries. A lot of us were not around in the sixties and if we were we don't remember details like those. The belts we chose to reproduce were more tailored to the 427 and Mustang crowd. If there are interest in the 289 stlye, I can check into the possibilities of making the "Impact" version. I can't promise but it should'nt be too much work. We tried to make our belts as close to original as possible and with as much detail as possible. To make a belt with all the casting's and marking's would really be an undertaking as you could imagine. Let me know if this is a desired venture and I can see if it can work. Thanks for the info. and pic's! Matt.

[csx700?]

i have a VERY limited number of these belts available if interested please email me, thanks.................$POR

[1985 CCX]

Good god, are these right? Close enough for me!

[LMH]

All were just lap belts though, right? No shoulder harnesses?
Larry