original 427 AC COBRA CSX3160 Help

[jbarela]

OK here is one that I hope you can all help me out on......I know a guy that lives in Italy and works for the Farrari (spellin?) race team...anyhow he has and original AC 427 Cobra CSX3160 that is a retired SCCA A production race car that was retired in 1969 .....well he has two positive (red) battery cables that are original with a Rotunda label wrapped around it . Both are diffrent leanths a 12'' and 18'' I believe ...He is doing a concourse restoration on it and I am trying to help him find out what is the correct leanth he needs for this cable for his car....please if anyone out there has an original cobra like his or knows the facts on this battery cable please post or email me...Thank you as always..

JImmy

[Byots]

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[jbarela]

Thank you so much for your post....Interesting...well last year he outbid me on two diffrent ebay auctions that ended at the same time for these rotunda cables...He said he comes to the U.S once or twice a year and that he did not know which cable size he needed so he bought both from me and he said he would get back to me on the cables ...so a year later I emailed him and this was his response to me today....."I have had some serious problems with the restoration shop that was working on my car. As a result, I had to terminate the restoration work for the time being. As I might have told you in an earlier communication, my car is an original AC 427 Cobra, CSX-3160. It's been apart since 1969 when it was retired as an SCCA A/production racing car. I've had it for almost all of the period since then. This should give you an idea of the glacial time-scale on which I'm working. At this point, I have a huge investment in the car, yet I still have to defer my gratification until some time far in the future. I've been practicing delayed gratification for nearly 35 years, but this is one thing that doesn't get any easier with practice."

So he does not want to get rid of either of them because he does not know which one he needs...so I am on a mission to get him the info so he will sell me the other one.....I want it because I saw a pic of an original 65 shelby R-Model with this exact Rotunda cable that was original to the car....by the way do you mind giving me your email address so that I can email him and give you as refrence as to the info you just gave me so that he does not think I just pulled that info out of my hat? HOpe to hear back from you....Thanks so much...

[Byots]

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[jbarela]

Thanks so much for the info and post.....I just emailed him and I hope that you guys are good enough friends that he trusts your words and sells me the exta cable he has....we will see...anyhow I thank you again...this forum has been a valuable resource for me......

would you happen to know how to tell a real cobra steering wheel emblem from a repo? So far I have seen large and small center caps...I have seen painted silver backs and painted black backs...I have seen the silver bars on the cobras chest end at the top of the word cobra with the tail end being all blue and i have seen the silver bars on the cobras chest go all the way down to the tail below the word cobra....I am looking at the 65 mustang shelby application as the early 65 shelbys used the AC cobra wheel and center cap....hope you have info on that....

JImmy

[Jim Maxwell]

Jimmy, My car, CSX 3288 has the 12" Rotunda red cable for the positive side, which I believe to be original. It has a long, I think 27", thin black ground cable, and based on the appearance, I think it is original, too. Of course, my car is later than his car, but not by much.

[Byots]

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[jbarela]

Thanks Mike and Jim for your posts...looks like it is a real hard to prove fact which cars had what...

Mike I would appreciate it if you could take the time here when you get a chance to follow up with me on the steering wheel emblem...you can post here or email me directly...I will try to email you in a week or two to remind you again....

THanks again for all your help I think these posts alone will help
Frank out in his restoration and helping me out.

[Dan Case]

I could not figure out how to add pitures to this reply. I put two images of a 427 Cobra steering wheel cap in my Gallery. I do not know what chassis numbers got what but I have alternately seen these black and silvers ones and the black, silver, red, white, and blue ones on 427 Cobras as far back as 1976. Since Cobras tend to be some of the most "customized" cars ever perhaps only original owners could tell for sure. The leaf spring 260/289 cars and AC Cars 289 Sports coil spring cars used black and sliver "AC" caps that were held in place with three metal spring clips. These caps are a bear to remove. I have been told that the "black COBRA" version with rubber o-ring retainer was for 427 Cobras and the colored version (same tool) with o-ring were for 1965 Shleby GT350 Mustangs. Both my former '65 GT350s, 5S142 and 5S446, had the colored version.

[Byots]

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[Dan Case]

CSX3298 was using a black and silver cap when it was being drag raced circa 1971-72. We have no idea what cap it may have left SAI with.
Dan

[Byots]

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[Jim Maxwell]

My car 3288 and 3 other later 427 cars, two with very low miles and each a two owner car, all have the black and silver caps. I thought the red and blue ones were later GT 350 caps, but I don't know where I got that info. I'll see if any of the SAAC regsitrars can help us out with that one.
BYOTS--I have found a photo of a late 427 car, taken when the car had 2000 miles, 2nd owner, that has the Impact seat belts like the ones on my car. That's the first car I have seen with those, other than mine, so perhaps they are correct after all...

[Dan Case]

Re: Seat Belts
IMPACT brand seat belts, and in the case of competition cars shoulder harnesses too, were used throughout Cobra and '65 GT350 production. Some of Friedman's books show competition team cars (289s) with the famous in the period "Wear Your IMPACT..." white sticker on either the steering wheel spokes or the sun visor in front on the driver. When Cobras were new the popular media made a big deal of the "fighter plan seat belts" in Cobras. SAI relied on aircraft supply companies heavily for competition "hardware". This was quite natural if you read the biographies of early SAI employees. Many had military experience. Aircraft hardware was and still is much supperior to what normally goes into cars. Using aircraft belts in the cars when sold new was pretty radical for the time. I have been hearing for decades about "Ray Brown" brand belts in SAI cars. I have seen a picture of a set of "Ray Brown" belts that were "IMPACT" belts with a Ray Brown label attached. I think Ray Brown was just marketing and not making belts. I belive the parent company for IMPACT was American Safety. Back in the 1960s almost all safety belts in Fords, any commerical aircraft, and many military aircraft were marked as being supplied by American Safety. They are still a major player in 2004.

[Jim Maxwell]

Dan, Thanks for that great piece of history. My 289's have all had "Ray Brown" belts, I think. I will look closely at 2149's belts to make sure that is a correct statement. The particular belt I was mentioning to BYOTS was the set in my 427 which has the black leather "flap" attached to the female piece, instead of the male piece which Mike has typically seen. Indeed, I couldn't find a photo in my collection that showed the flap on the female end, but I haven't taken photos of belts very often (but I will in the future).

[Dan Case]

All the Cobras and '65 GT350s, some mine and some of friends, that have passed through my garage all had IMPACT®brand belts with a black leather lap shield on the latch side. CSX2310 still wears the belts that are supposed to have been in the car since leaving SAI. I have receipts for all work and or I have talked with the persons that did or had almost all work done on the car since 1966. I can document even things like when wheel alignment was checked but there is no mention of replacing the belts. The ones on CSX2310 are marked "American Safety Model No. CB 500 IMPACT". The forged steel latch body and loop pieces are works of art. The forging tool formed "ASE" (American Safety Equipment), an ASE part number, and the complete Military Specification ("MS") for their design and manufacture in raised letters on the parts. Decades ago I bought a NOS set of '65 350 belts and Cobra competition shoulder harness from a former Shelby (new car) dealer. All the parts were of the "CB" prefix series belts I believe and were still in the American Safety IMPACT® marked boxes. In the 60's through 80's it was very common to replace the seat belts in Cobras for either racing or appearance. The SCCA group I use to hang out with would never accept my "old belts". Any Cobra or GT350 used in competition probably got "new" belts at least once a year while all their magnesium wheels and suspension parts were out being checked for cracks. I had a neighbor that raced a Cobra. He had to Magniflux® (MPI) steel parts and Zyglo® (X-ray and or die penetrate) aluminum and magnesium parts before every season. Old and or worn seat belts were not permitted. In some local regions chroming the roll bar was not allowed. Appearance was another big deal. Nobody that bought a Cobra for whatever high dollar of the time was wanted shabby interior. I just bought CSX2551. It has just over 37,000 miles on it and it has had completely new soft trim and seat belts at least three times. I looked at a 289 Cobra with 1,580 miles on it that had never been in the rain yet as of 1985 it had all its soft trim replaced, repainted, and new belts. The original stuff was all tossed in the trash...I asked about it.

It is really tough figuring out what is "original" for any particular Cobra. No body seems to want to acknowledge that anything about their car is not correct. Example. People, including original owners, claiming that "Made In Germany" wrenches were original to their cars. The "Made In Germany" ones are original only if the car was made after circa 1989 because prior to the Cold War thaw the wrenches were made and marked "Made In W. Germany". The Elora No. 100 wrenches were made and sold for decades, only lately in "Germany".

[Specialk]

Here's a picture of a belt in a late 289 car.
Is anybody reproducing that tag?

[Byots]

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[Dan Case]

Kris,
Those look a lot like the reproductions, whole belt assemblies, Jim Cowles had for sale at his booth at SAAC-28. The old ones, traceable back at least into the late 1960s, like mine, have a much smaller completely different label. The leather shown your image looks real new. My old ones, and all the old ones I know of, have very darkly oxidized (and staining) cut edges.

I believe a general comment on reproductions is warranted. Genuine Cobra parts, even when the cars were new, have always been a finite and very limited supply. Companies started making copies of almost every part as early as 1971! Old SAAC club magazines have ads in them for "new" sources of obsolete Cobra parts. So far, every reproduction made that I have examined is in some way different from the originals they copy. There are lots of reasons for this but it is almost impossible for two companies to make the exact same part even from the same drawing. I deal with this problem daily in my job at GE. New suppliers always change something for some reason. Even FoMoCo had this problem with assembly plants. Early Mustangs were assembled at several different plants to the same drawings. Every plant did things their own way. Experienced Mustang folks can tell where an unrestored Mustang was assembled without looking at the serial number. Cobra parts are worse. Example: 2" round COBRA nose and boot emblems. There were two versions made by two different companies with two completely different tools to the same Peter Brock sketch. These supplies ran out by circa 1972. A supplier out west had a new tool made and had parts made. By the 1980s these ran out and a eastern guy had another tool made as a copy of the circa 1972 version. Yep, reproduction of a reproduction. Each recreation changed the look, fit, and or function a little. Here in 2004 there are several reproductions of the reproductions available for Cobras. The current reproductions often include details from a combination of original and other reproduction parts.

[Dan Case]

Mike,
Please check the hardware on a Ray Brown. Do the forgings have "ASE", a part number, and a "MS" number?
Dan