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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 02:17 AM
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mark,

nice drawings!
especially the rear LCA. I wish I had this one when I started.
I would replace the odd-angled 427 rear suspension with that of the 289.
(I would also replace the leaf spring of the 289 with a coil-over)

does anybody know the original designer of the 427 rear suspension?
I wonder what the demands to that design were in the 60s.
I like to discuss this one over a beer with him :-)

mick,
my pictures could serve as a deterrent, showing all the mistakes we made... ;-)

dom
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 03:36 AM
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I suspect that the 427 RS was designed by the same person who did the GT40 rear suspension. The layouts are quite similar, within the limits of the basic chassis design.

The angle is there for anti-squat.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 07:49 AM
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Rick,

The Shelby springs are unique to the Shelby uprights. Shelby added eccentrics to the uprights so camber could be adjusted, so the springs are shorter than an original spring. As shipped, all the 289 Shelby's need to have the springs re-arched. My plan is to have a local spring shop make up a set of springs to the original drawings, then arch them to get the correct right height. Its a pain, but I don't know any other way to do it.

The CSX7000 series cars use Afco shocks, and the CSX8000 series cars use Spax shocks.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 01:28 PM
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The 427 (and yes, GT40) suspensions are the work of Klaus Arning, and Ford Motor Co. he was the main chassis design guru in that era. Legend has it that the 427 was one of the first suspensions laid out on a computer...
To have a beer with him, show up at a SAAC national, he appears at quite a few of them. As a matter of fact, I wanted to ask him why the 427 used a welded on rear subframe as opposed to a full length frame rail (as a scratch builder here at CC has done). I just hope I can remember to ask at the next open floor at the nationals! I think it has to do with optimal cahssis mounting points, as I do recall that the rear arms on the 427 were a ' best compromise' because the original computer design had the forward points in the drivers arse. Not bad in a straight line, but I sure it hurt like he// over a bump!!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2005, 10:48 PM
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good day,

keep talking!
I learned a lot about this rear suspension from my books, Morris' build-up and input from R.Hudkins and of course Strictly P.
But my two buddies at chassis design in Germany say there is more to that rear suspension, which is actually amazing - if correct.

the topic "drawings" may not be the right place, but while I have your attention I fo for it :-)

1. the 40odd degree mounting anlge of the track rod is not critical, however the center of the mount is.
the distance from the center of the chassis and the heigth above ground.
the track rod angle dictates how much anti-squat you've got.

pointing at the center of gravity of the car (CG), actually lower than that, I guess 20% anti-squat.
the saying is, that those track rods would have ended up in the drivers back if mounted at full length.
a less heavy car having a lower CG, in theory, could have those track rod pointing at another angle.
people used to set up for acceleration (4-link in a drag cars) know what I am talking about.

2. the 12-odd degree angle of the LCA chassis mount is needed to slide the bolt in, and maybe to give the rubber bush a pre-twist? I don't know.

this rear frame is needed to have the LCA mount as far to the center of the chassis as possible to get a decent camber curve, and maybe to replace it easily after an accident.

the RC should be the same distance on the rear axle to the CG (of the rear axle) as the front RC to the front axle's CG.
If it is greater the car will loose traction on that end earlier. (of course: springs, shocks and bars play a role here also)
RC front: 5.5", RC rear 2 5/8" above ground. CG, I don't know, I estimate camshaft height in front, diff input shaft in the rear.

3. the 3,5 degrees of the UCA (upper control arm) dictates anti-aquat, moving the wheel rearward in bump (the upright turns clockwise looking from the side, (left in the "picture" is front of the car), BUT causing toe-in in bump (out in droop)
the control arm mount of the track rod pointing down supports that movement.

Now,
has this suspension originally been designed for a street car on skinny 205 tires, or for a racing car with little suspension movement and 10" tires?
I guess street.
still anti-squat is also a good thing for racing, if the suspension is not binding.

the original layout causes the outward wheel to toe-in in ROLL (bump) and the inward wheel to toe-out.
total toe is still "IN" but more, helping the car in the corner - and out of the corner once you push the pedal down.
toe-ing less IN, but not out!
that whole movement is also affected by the 3-odd degree of the UCA.

and this is what I would like to discuss with Klaus Arning, and which specs he had to follow when designing it :-)
I heard a current Dodge Viper's rear suspension follows the same idea.

which is turn, would make the 427 rear suspension a masterpiece, and worthwhile to copy it. It is quite comlex!
and worth the 2 years it took me to figure it out... - if not, I have another tequila ;-)

Opinion, thoughts?

(pic shows mock-up)

Dominik
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2005, 04:11 AM
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Interesting to see that the 2004-5 Ford Explorers use the same Cobra derived rear suspension. The uprites look like they will fit a Cobra, with little modification.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2005, 08:18 PM
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Anyone got a pic or some dimensions off the Exploder bits. I'd like to see one. Hey Dom, if designers change something they're improving and changing direction, they never make mistakes! Aren't we designing (or at least reverse engineering) the suspension?? I'd love to have a beer or two with that guy, it's still a good design 40 years on
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2005, 04:46 AM
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Go to your local Ford dealer's parts dpt. they can get you an xploded view. (I have one, I'll get "Werks to post) While your there you can look under an Explorer. I didn't measure one ,but it looks pretty damed close. I may have found the front uprites too, but won't know untill I get it on a surface plate to measure. Just think, real Cobra parts, still being made.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2005, 07:28 PM
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Mr Bruce, good work keep us posted.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2005, 07:39 PM
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I wonder if the Explorer uprights would fit the T-bird IRS CV axles? Hmmmmmm.......... the wheels are turning. If someone gets a copy of the exploded drawings and dimensions, post it here , could you?

Thanks, Bob
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2005, 07:54 PM
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Hey lads there's a new player on e-bay check these out
rear uprights
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2005, 08:19 PM
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Heck of a price at opening...lets see what she does at the dinner bell!
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2005, 09:31 PM
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So who is this person? Anybody know? I have a guess but would rather not look more foolish than necessary.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2005, 11:18 PM
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I am watching,

mine are $260 per pair from 356-T6, x-rayed, unmachined plus shipping (from south-africa).
includes drawings.

I fitted FORD Granada in one set, could provide "as cast" measurements that you can see how much meat there is.

anyway, at the moment I can offer none, or 10 meaning I would have to get a new batch cast, which will not happen before october after I come back from Germany.

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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2005, 03:21 AM
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I would like to know who it is as well. He has a 289 FIA body listed! (i really need one of those....)

--Mark
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2008, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mloy View Post
I've uploaded some drawings to my gallery if anyone would like to see what some of the leaf spring chassis looks like. Keep in mind the frame drawing is still a work in progress and I need to finish/fix it.
Hi

I see this thread was started some time ago, but hope you are still reading posts.

I'm planning a 289 project and need to get the chassis modelled and drawn, or find someone who can supply/sell me plans.

I've looked at your gallery, but can't find the drawings referred to.
Have you removed them now?

Regards
John
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2008, 04:36 AM
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Hi John, Mark (mloy) hasn't been on the forum for a while I believe he rediscovered a first love (Mustang fastback). If you are looking for 289 drawings he was working with and getting them from Cobra Chuck http://members.aol.com/chuckcobra/Dr...s_drawings.htm
I have a couple of pieces of 3" tube that someone needs to build a 289 from ;-)
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2008, 05:21 AM
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Funny, I haven't gotten an email from Club Cobra for some time and then one shows up in my email about drawings. Must be a sign...

John, PM me your address and I'll send out all the drawings, pictures and notes that I have. The drawings are in AutCAD so you'll need at least a reader to see them or you may be able to get them plotted out somewhere. All I ask is that you say nice things about me and maybe a few dollars if you feel so inclined.

Mick, I've been lurking every now and then to make sure y'all are OK. The fastback goes for paint next month and I've been working on the motor since it sustained a little damage from the drag strip last October.

--Mark
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2008, 05:24 AM
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Hi,
Cann't seem to get to the more recent pics,all I get are the 30 or so from March to November. I'm up here in Canada maybe they don't allow them across the border.lol
Steve
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2008, 05:24 PM
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Hey lurker good to see you're around still. They always go best right before they blow, what ET did ya run? John check for a free download of e-draw and that will let you open CAD and even 3D files like Solidworks ProE etc.
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