SAI Manufacturing details!

[Excaliber]

I want to know! I'm sure others do to!

What are the details concerning the building of an SAI car?
I understand the frame is somewhat thicker. What about the other parts? How are they different today than from the cars of the 60's? Besides Kirkham, who else provides body/frame components? Where do the glass bodies come from and are they on an identical frame as they aluminum cars? SO many questions!

Ernie

[James Baldwin]

Good questions, Ernie. I too would like to know.

[Tongue Pirate]

I was looking at the Shelby American website yesterday. There really isn't much detail there. Does anyone know why this is?

[pk]

kris's site has a forum that has answered this question (to a degree).www.csxinfo.net
pk

[Brent Fenimnore]

All,

I am preparing a complete document that will outline the process and procedure on the Aluminum and Glass cars in both the 289 and 427 configurations. I will try and get it published within the next day or two on the outside. Kris is a fantastic employee and Cobra fan, he is knowledgable in several areas on the construction of our cars but I want to make sure the proper information on the components, engineering and production as well as sales process and procedures of SAI is conveyed so as to not leave him hanging out in the eyes of SAI or his fellow employees.

I will get back asap.

Thanks,

Brent Fenimore

[Excaliber]

Excellent!

Kris's site is the BEST, but in some ways it did raise as many questions as it answered.

Ernie

[ST]

Ernie

What questions were not answered to YOUR satisfaction?

All you have to do is ask and you'll get an answer but you WON'T find any rhetoric about company (SAI) policy.
It's there to be helpful to anybody who's interested in technical details and the history of CSX cars.

Kris has helped many people with the build of their cars (me included) and continues to help ANYBODY with questions.

[PatBuckley]

ST-

I agree - perhaps if Ernie could come up with even one answer that raised more questions?

Pat

[CSX 4039]

I, too appreciate the opportunity to hear from management authority, who are at liberty to speak freely, about the differences between Kirkhams, CSX fiberglass, and CSX aluminum cars. I have paraphrased information from private correspondance, without web placing personal email, and was personally attacked as propagating BS for not naming sources which did not desire to be named. Of course, if I had named them, that would have violated email etiquette as was noted on the 'embarrassment ad' thread. So, let the facts speak for themselves. I have been told that peripheral CSX frames pieces are "much harder to drill into than KMP's". I have also been told that "there is no difference between them". I have been told that "original Cobras frames were so thin that they could bend in one season", but then told days later that "maybe my car could last for 140 years, but there must not be any problem with the original cars because they have lasted for 40 years"! (I guess if driven to car shows and photo ops only).
So, let the truth, no matter what, see the light of day!
My opinion.

[Excaliber]

It's not about my satisfaction personally. It's a fascinating subject in general, to me and I think to others, the contruction/re-construction of Shelby Cobras, new or old. I look forward to some inisghts and details from any sources.

Private owners, such as Brett Bolte or Evan. Employess such as Kris or Brent. A typicall restore of an original 60's era car can cost in excess of $50K. Wow, thats a TON of money, I wonder where it is spent?

Hopefully Brent will fill us in on additional details of the process of what makes a Shelby different than a McCluskey an AC or a Kirkham. Where the different bodies have come from, etc.

Interesting that AC didn't make all their bodies originally either. In some cases they contracted that work out. I wonder to whom? Austin Healey maybe?

No ax to grind here! Just a healthy respect for the history of the car in all it's phases of developement.

Ernie

[CSX 4039]

Ernie-
David Kidwell, a member of CC, and a real car guy, just volunteered to work on my car for a couple days. He has been under and driven several replicas before, but never an SAI. He spontaneously called to tell me he was amazed by the difference in build and the difference in the quality of parts. He said that the car had the kind of heavy duty parts that he normally saw in track cars or drag strip/funny cars, and had not seen before in a Cobra replica. He also commented on the ride quality, very smooth, as opposed to the jarring ride he had experienced in others. While I can run a 4 inch needle up your spinal column, I am not a car guy, from a mechanical aspect, just an appreciator of beauty and history. It was comforting and fun to hear a car guy get all excited about a CSX, because to just sit hear and listen to some of these threads, there is no difference, or, because CS can have bad bedside manner- owning a CSX is a disgrace, which makes a guy like me who doesn' t know, wonder why my car cost 2-4X more than many others. This is NOT to brag, be elitist or any of that other BS people ascribe to my personality. I don' t care if I'm talking about my car or your car, it was just nice to hear from a guy who knows the difference. You can email him, and ask him to chime in on the differences he noted. His CC handle is David Kidwell. He is building an ERA. You should see his stable of cars, and his garage. It is in the recent TCC gallery photo I posted. You could very easily live in his 4000 sq. foot garage, and eat off the floor! It is a Tim (the Tool Man) Taylor's fantasy, to be sure.
Anyway, according to Kidwell there is a quality difference and hope for a CSX yet. This is not to put down any other cars. Generally you get what you pay for, and as I have said before, if you spent $30k on a replica, you got a great car for the money, but if you spent $80k or more on a different car you did not neccessarily waste your moeny either. Personally, I undoubtedly bought way more car than I need, cause my favorite speed is about 55 mph. Any faster, and I can't watch people staring at it! (Never mind if they don't know who I am- I'd frankly rather they don't. In fact, none of the employees at our clinic even know I own the car, or, have ever even seen it)!

p.s.- so please don't call the office and beseige them with phone calls about my Cobra. They don't have a clue what it takes to going from picking day old groceries out of the dumpster behind the grocery store with my Mom as a kid, to owning a Cobra.

[Lew Ledyard]

Brett:

I understand how there are obvious differences between SAI, EM, SPF, FFR, Unique and ERA cars. Each of those manufacturers has a different design approach. However, what is puzzling is the claimed differences between KMP and SAI cars.

Lew

[Excaliber]

Lew,
In particular the KMP difference is a key question.

Bretts case is unique in that his body is NOT a KMP (who built it, I forget). There appear to be some subtle differences in the body work of Bretts car compared to other SAI cars. Could be nothing more than the "pictures" as they were taken. It's not about "good or bad", it's a celebration of the differences.

I think the differences are SO cool because we KNOW the original cars WERE different from each other! So are Aston Martins! The door from one WON'T bolt on to another one, their hand made for THAT car!

Brent F. touched on the use of extra heavy duty "parts" used in the build of a Shelby, which Brett confirms. It looks like CAV in South Africa may be making or selling Shelby 427 Cobras? Now THAT is news! Glass bodies? Whos frame? Same parts as are found on Bretts car?

It has been suggested that sheet metal changes are done to some of the out sourced body/frames delivered to SAI. I wonder what that entails?

Thus, as you explore these issues deeper you wind up with more questions than you started with! I love a good mystery!

Ernie

[REAL 1]

Bretts body is by Kimmons. Very nice.

There are some differences (modest) as I understand and as posted previously between the Kirkham and SAI.

Shelby uses their own suspension components. I think the main difference is in the adjustability in castor/camber in front and rear. Shelby's is more adjustable I think. Shelby uses Baer brakes or upgrade Girlings. Kirkham uses Willwood.

Other then that there may be differences in carpet used and seats.

As to changes in body I'm not sure of the details but it couldn't be in the exterior aspects as both cars are exactly the same from the exterior. The changes may be in further finishing of some of the interior panels and wiring. No big deal.

As to the heavy duty parts and build. What I believe is being referred to is the fact that many parts are not cast but forged and the use of chrome molly instead of mild steel. Both Kirkham and Shelby are identical in this regard.

Kirkham has in essence replaced AC as Shelby subcontractor for the build of the frame and body. Times have changed. So have the suppliers.

[Excaliber]

Was it on Kris' site that I read about the motor mounts being moved back? It wasn't for weight distribution purposes, as I understand it, but for more clearance for the engine components. Hmmm,,,,must be something with the radiator mounts I guess. That could also affect the firewall, fresh air box area, etc. Just speculation.......

Ernie

[Brent Fenimnore]

Dear Real 1,

You are correct in what you are saying in several ways, many of them will be identified over the course of the next few weeks as I have mentioned on another thread.

Major differances in suspension design, fabrication and application do atribute to the ride and handling differances mentioned by Brett as well as the structural ragidity of the frame itself. The use of a specific brake "system" can make considerable differance and in fact we have done the same type of development with the coil overs as well. We worked with Flaming River back in 1998 & 1999 to develop a modern rack that meets the original dimensional configuration that is availablke to the general public as well as Kirkham so we will not go into that particular detail. Other changes to the suspension such as bushing material, bearing configuration, dimensional setup and mounting brackets to mention only a few have also changed the ride that is accomplished with the CSX4000 units.

I wish to point out that SAI has utilized some 6 different suppliers of the aluminum bodies for the CSX4000 platform over the past 7 years and in fact have requested to get the aluminum bodies only from Kirkham to no avail for the past three years in our attempt to make all frames conform to the same structural standards.

The changes to the interior and fender tin that you mention is no big deal adds up to a lot more than meets the eye. One simple example of the details that are addressed by SAI is the attention to removing the seat back panel, counter sinking all rivet holes, for covering with vinyl, or leather pending the customer choice, and reinstalling the panels. If this step is not followed the result is self explanitory. This modification is only a few of the panels that are reworked but I can state by hands on experience that it is not a one hour job by any means.

The wiring harness used by SAI is night and day different from the Kirkham harness in materials as well as configuration which will be discussed at a later date.

The body itself has been reworked in several ways over the course of the last 110 Kirkham bodies used but I can happily state that they have utilized a continuous improvement process on a unit by unit basis, it is hand formed and of course each body has it's own subtle differances.

Heavy duty components does not only refer to the material used but also the actual structural design and or integrity of the components themselves, I will go into specifics at a later date as well. I am not trying to escape from further detail but do not want to bore anyone and need to get some sleep.

Thank you for your time and input,

Brent Fenimore

[Lew Ledyard]

Well said Ron. I think most readers would like see some objective information on this post in order to allow them to make an informed purchasing decision. The posts on this thread are due in large part to the "Shelby Ad" thread which was heavy on emotion, but light on objective facts (which was fine and probably needed). Hopefully, the balance on this thread will swing the other way and be a little more objective and analytical.

Threads which follow an emotional track are just as important as threads which take an analytical track. It just becomes difficult to wade through when the two types of threads merge.

Lew

[Excaliber]

Fascinating! I'm still digesting the information offered by all camps at this point.

Ernie

[REAL 1]

Brent: Thanks for the info. I didn't mean to demean the work on the inner panels. Just my lack of understanding. Thanks for clearing it up.

Proud owner of CSX 4206

[computerworks]

(thread back up)

Please keep posts on topic; this is a Manufacturer's Forum.