CSX4000 vs CSX3000

[mr bruce]

A much better investment would be Shelby stock, especially if you bought, say $500 bucks worth, when it was 5 cents. It opened at .95 cents today.

[REAL 1]

Yes. I understand what you guys are saying and agree to a point.

Back in the 60's the people involved in the Cobra didn't know they were going to make history of if the Cobra would be a significant part of history at that time. Hindsight is 20/20.

History doesn't stand still. What happens today may very well be looked at differently in 20, 30, 40 years then how we believe it will be. Maybe not. Who knows.

I'm not saying the Continuation series will pay a "pivitol" role in Shelby history. Certainly their role will never be as significant as the originals role. Thats clear. But the Continuation series does have a role and is part of the Shelby history (to what ever degree history eventually assigns it) and forever linked to all of Shelby's history. Thats my only point.

Turk: Hear what ???

[misfit41]

Originally posted by Lowell W


Tim,

Good analogy. If I might make a small analogous contribution: Few people would mistake a Ruger New Model Blackhawk for a Colt SAA. However, shooters looking for a stronger, safer, more dependable, less expensive and virtually maintenance-free version of the SAA likely would opt for a stainless Blackhawk-and one could even call it a ".45 Colt" if it were chambered in .45LC. The Colt has the name, the looks, the feel and the "clickety clickety" sound; the Ruger has the attributes listed above. Is one "better"? Depends on what you want to do with it. A collector might turn up his nose at the Ruger but I think it's safe to say that serious shooters burn a lot more powder through their Blackhawks than their Colt Single Actions. And then, of course, there are the Freedom Arms guns... So if it just has to say "Colt" on the barrel: Fine; the choice is simple. Just decide how much the name is worth and go ahead and impress everybody by paying as much for a gun as you might for a car-and then don't shoot it because it's too valuable! On the other hand, if you're less concerned with the name than you are with performance and "bang for the buck", there are some excellent alternatives.

Oh yeah...what I've NOT seen at gun shows is some guy jumping up and down going "Yeah, but this is a Colt!...Yeah, but this is a Colt...". We know, we know...

The Ruger and Freedom Arms detractors, usually those who don't shoot very much, tend to slant the picture to their liking.

Lowell

I Agree with you Lowell,on the ruger being stronger and safer,more accurate and a better value for the shooter. i've said for ever ,If I wanted a cool car to drive the crap out of,bang for the buck and maybe fastest I would want a non donor built FFR ,I think they rock as a driver ,may be the best or close to it at least and 30k will put you at the top of the food chain.I still want a one dammit !! lol
Some of the other post I just think take this thing too literal.I have never said or thought CSX4000's are Historicly significant,or Identical to CSX3000.I really dont see what that has to do with anything .I am stating They are the "Current Production"of a Shelby Cobra ,end of statement ,no other insinuations or puns intended or meant .Although I will say this,good or bad ,again im not saying they are better than anything and i certainly respect many of the other cars as much as i do CSX,but in 20 years when they dont make any of these things and we walk thru the pederson or some like museum by the shelby display there will be a csx 4000 car there .Come to think of it,,I may even bet there will be a Shelby museum by then.
Oh,,and yes,,AMF damaged HD by trying sell harleys to the mass market .Any one deep in harleys knows the pre amf shovels were a bit better .Im not sure who did the tooling but the truth is the bikes werent that bad.the headache came from trying to put average Joes on harleys .It just didnt work since you had to be a biker and know how to wrench them to ride one .It took the evolution engine to make them a main stream bike for the masses.I do claim a bit of knowledge about these things.
I know were way off topic,but thats my story and Im sticking to it.Ill make one other analogy I head once that seems fitting here.
You'll hear lots of guys saying size dosent matter ,but you never hear a guy with a big Johnson wishing he could trade down.,,,T

[Lowell W]

Tim,

Good point with the Johnson thing...

Ya know, 20 years from now,when you walk through the Shelby museum, I'll bet there WILL be a CSX 4000 car there. If you ask the guy walking around to keep the fingerprints off the cars: "Hey, is that a REAL Cobra?", he'll say, "Nah: this is one of the cars Shelby built later; the REAL ONE is in the back. It's too valuable to put out on the floor."

Like it or not, Harley Davidson did what they needed to do to compete in today's market. I also rode bikes years ago, when you had to be a mechanic to keep the freakin' things on the road. My last bike was a Royal Enfield and I have one (well, OK: more than one-and not the ones made in India, either) today, along with a Buell and my wife's Sportster, which she never would have bought if it were anything like the Sportsters of the '60's! Yeah, they're mainstream now and that helps sell Harleys but it does kinda take riding a motorcycle in a different direction. Very few motorcycle shops anymore with oil puddles on the floor...

What's my point? Oh...I dunno...no point except...uh...hey, reach in that cooler and toss me another beer, will ya?

Lowell

[misfit41]

Originally posted by mr bruce


From the pictures, the HST cars appear to be built with a fiberglass cockpit tub. As far as suspension, does ANYBODY know?

your correct they are built with fiberglass foot boxes,as were the originals from day one.The suspension is identical except some brand name differences ,The uprights are alloy instead of steel,the brakes or not girling and the center rear end housing may be of another mfg Im not sure but parts will interchange with originals. From what I can learn the cars are nearly identical except minor body assy diffrences.it drives me crazy every one has gone nuts with this thing like the cars are totally different.
My opinon they are at least equal to a well built csx4000 pallet car of a couple years ago.I am sure there are things the purist will note that I havent seen,but they are very nice cars.I had the same questions as everyone else but this is a cobra ,no doubt about it. any one who inspects one of these cars in person would have to agree.

[misfit41]

haha,,yeah a cool one may go well with this conversation,,since we've totally taken this thread off topic,,not sure thats a bad thing either.
I may even agree with your comment on the cars,,at least I wont rebuke it,time will tell.
I just know I'm happy to have mine,Im a regular guy,who never dreamed of owning a car like this ,same with the shell valley,I like it too just not the same way.But I own shelby cobra,,haha
Im not knocking harley for appealing to masses now,if it werent for that I wouldnt likely have one my self,and if not for HD I wouldnt have a cobra in my garage,or the SS or the firebird or the 57,,lol
I guess weve killed this thing,,thanks for the debate,,Tim
out,QUOTE]Originally posted by Lowell W


Tim,

Good point with the Johnson thing...

Ya know, 20 years from now,when you walk through the Shelby museum, I'll bet there WILL be a CSX 4000 car there. If you ask the guy walking around to keep the fingerprints off the cars: "Hey, is that a REAL Cobra?", he'll say, "Nah: this is one of the cars Shelby built later; the REAL ONE is in the back. It's too valuable to put out on the floor."

Like it or not, Harley Davidson did what they needed to do to compete in today's market. I also rode bikes years ago, when you had to be a mechanic to keep the freakin' things on the road. My last bike was a Royal Enfield and I have one (well, OK: more than one-and not the ones made in India, either) today, along with a Buell and my wife's Sportster, which she never would have bought if it were anything like the Sportsters of the '60's! Yeah, they're mainstream now and that helps sell Harleys but it does kinda take riding a motorcycle in a different direction. Very few motorcycle shops anymore with oil puddles on the floor...

What's my point? Oh...I dunno...no point except...uh...hey, reach in that cooler and toss me another beer, will ya?

Lowell [/quote]

[STG]

Originally posted by REAL 1


40 years.

......However, significantly part of the Continuation series provenance is in fact the originals themselves and the history of the its forefathers, the originals. ......

The Continuation series detractors, usually those who don't have one, tend to slant the picture to their liking.

Hi Evan,

I'm still trying to get through that first paragraph above. (I'd pay some serious cash to read through your Bar exam!)

Face facts. The Continuation Series was based on the premise that the cars' chassis and bodies were fabricated by AC during the sixties. As the joint letter signed by Carroll Shelby and Brian Angliss clearly states that they WERE NOT.

You are free to pay whatever you want for a CSX number, but please do not imply that most Continuation Series detractors are jealous non-owners. Many of us, while able to write a check for one, JUST DON'T WANT ONE.

For me, any non-CSX2000 or CSX3000 Shelby Cobras are at best the bowling balls of the CSX Cobras. (Apologies to AMF - they make a FINE bowling ball!)

Perhaps the people who can't afford a REAL CSX2000/3000 are slanting the picture to their liking by thinking they can join the ranks of Shelby Cobra owners for 30% of the normal buy-in.

You know Evan, if you spent 10% of the time you wasted on ClubCobra defending 4000 series cars on your law practice, you would have racked up enough billable hours to buy a 3000 car a couple of years ago!

[mr bruce]

Original Cobras didn't have fiberglass tub passenger compartments. Yes they did have fiberglass foot boxes and tyre trays in the trunk on the small block cars. The HST cars have fiberglass passenger compartments, and it looks like in the pics, aluminum footboxes(or al overlaid over the glass).

[computerworks]

Originally posted by STG



Face facts. The Continuation Series was based on the premise that the cars' chassis and bodies were fabricated by AC during the sixties. As the joint letter signed by Carroll Shelby and Brian Angliss clearly states that they WERE NOT.

...point of order, Stosh... (using SAAC's vocabulary)...

What you have described is known as the Completion series...using the supposed "leftover" frames and the legit unassigned numbers between CSX3056 and CSX3100, as handmade one-off specialties

The Continuation series is correctly attributed to SA's entry in the replica market, the CSX4000, 7000 and 8000 cars, as modern production, 'continuing' the production of genuine Shelby cars.

[computerworks]

Originally posted by mr bruce


Original Cobras didn't have fiberglass tub passenger compartments. Yes they did have fiberglass foot boxes and tyre trays in the trunk on the small block cars. The HST cars have fiberglass passenger compartments, and it looks like in the pics, aluminum footboxes(or al overlaid over the glass).

The HST cars have two large fiberglas inner pieces...one for the full trunk and one for the interior.

The interior one-piece encompasses the rear bulkhead and the floorpan. They then use original-style separate footboxes...
..in the roller form, the footboxes are externally covered with heatshield material

[CobraEd]

ttt

[computerworks]

..it is

[STG]

Originally posted by computerworks


...point of order, Stosh... (using SAAC's vocabulary)...

What you have described is known as the Completion series...using the supposed "leftover" frames and the legit unassigned numbers between CSX3056 and CSX3100, as handmade one-off specialties

The Continuation series is correctly attributed to SA's entry in the replica market, the CSX4000, 7000 and 8000 cars, as modern production, 'continuing' the production of genuine Shelby cars.

Ron,

Boy, I'm embarrased because I know that! However, in my defense...

Problem number one: I forgot to look at my previous post.

Problem number two: I don't have a CSX decoder ring. Between Shelby's similar naming convention, multi-continent build locations and Evan's sometimes undecipherable rantings, it's easy to get confused.

You really need to give me a pass on this one!

On another topic - I would have presumed that a Kirkham owner should know it's Stas, not Stosh! I'll give you a pass on this one 'cause I know your brain is overflowing with Shelby trivia and cannot possibly hold any more data. Pretty soon, you'll be writing over the index tracks!

[misfit41]

wow,
Is it just me or do I sense excessive arrogance ? Sounds Like the shelbys arent for " regular " people to own. Is it possible that there are people who could drop the bucks for a csx 2000 or 3000 if they really wanted it that badly ?,but maybe just want the best possible compromise that is sensible ? something that will serve the same purpose and carries the name even though it isnt the Guilded original car.Or possibly someone who actually is a car guy and wants to really drive the car as it was meant to be driven as opposed to a poser who wants to boast and possibly belittle his peers by owning one of the "originals",Phalic symbol maybe ?.
My opnion is as with many things money ruins the sport.I've stated before Im a regular guy who started with nothing and still has some of it ,a high school drop out who isnt supposed to have a decent car much less a cobra.But its paid for,and yes if I REALLY wanted it I could have an original,I have enough toys that I could lose to pay for a 3000 ,but I couldnt justify such an extravagance when I would rather drive my cobra and enjoy all the other cars,but I could do it.
I see it all the time in my bike shop,you have the guys who buy bikes and ride them,enjoy them having the time of their lives,then there are those mid life crisis who cant make up their minds on color or style,when they finally decide and beat the streets making sure they have bought under cost .Then they are back every saturday ordering or buying chrome until the bike looks like a tacky christmas decoration.Next year they are trading and then the next,never riding much,never happy ,but they think they are cool because they have a harley.When they do decide to venture across town for a bite or a beer someone will actually talk to them,for a while at least.
It's just a shame all of us cant enjoy having a great car no matter what it is or why we want to own it without all the BS,any one interested in a "regular people" cobra forum ? Tim

[REAL 1]

I thought my rantings were crystal clear.



As usual STG your statements are factually inaccurate as to the Continuation Series.

I don't think any Continuation owners are under any illusion they own an original or that the Continuation series carries the same provenance as an original.

But, you betcha, its a REAL Cobra and deserves distinction from non real ones. Seems like most of the guys that bothers is guys who don't own a Shelby and who love to refer to the Continuation series as just a "replica" in an obvious effort to knock the Continuation Cobra. It is a Continuation series Cobra. Not a replica of a Cobra. The fact is, it is a Cobra. Period.

You draw your own conclusions as to why many (I didn't say "all") non Shelby owners are hung up on not recognizing the Shelby as a genuine Cobra and deserving of that distinction. I'll draw mine.

Non owners knocks of the Continuation series mean less than nothing to me. I'll stick with what SAAC says.

[misfit41]

I've figured this thing out,,not sure why it took so long to come to me.
What if all this time you have relished in the fact of owning a csx3000 series car,a "REAL" cobra ,walking a bit taller and prouder,feeling just a tad better then the guys at the light in their vettes or carerras,much less the lowly "kit cars" Then the the guy down the road who is maybe a Supervisor at the "plant" and lives in in one of those "starter' houses ,what is he 27 ? all of a sudden he gets this csx4000 thingy and the perception is he has a 'REAL" cobra too,damn,,that sort of takes the stream out of it huh ? umm,,interesting isnt it ?T

[CobraEd]

OH GOD!!!!!! This whole Web site was doing so well for so long. It was getting to be a pleasure to visit here and hear from a bunch of mature people with honest questions and helpful answers.

These friken Bu__sh_t threads on "3,000 vs 4,000", IS IT REAL"..."IS IT NOT REAL", are Soooo tiresome and moronic. Can we just get the ClubCobra marshals to delete them all. We are starting to head back to where we were a year or so ago.

I think people innocently start them with good intentions and sincere curiosity, not knowing how they are going to be "spun". These threads are a festering boil on the butt of Club Cobra. Lets delete them all! PLEASE!!!???

Cobra Ed

[REAL 1]

Hey Ed: In case you didn't notice the title of this thread basically involves this issue.

Many other threads for you to visit if you don't like this one.

Its as a legitimate topic as any other related to Cobras and replicas thereof.

[CobraEd]

Thanks!

[Anthony]

From what I remember,


The csx30XX "completion" cars were originally termed the "continuation" cars, the cars that had frames that were "originally" made in the '60's. The csx4000 cars were originally called component cars. Somewhere down the road, the names were changed, but the faces didn't.

All csx2000 and 3000 cars had fiberglass foot boxes. The street CSX3000 cars had fiberglass trunk floors with a well for a spare tire. Just the S/C's and Comp 3000 cars had the aluminum flat trunk floor. The CSX4000 car was a replica of a S/C, not a replica of a street CSX3000 car. The fiberglass CSX4000 cars came with a fiberglass flat trunk, replicating the S/C flat aluminum trunk. The fiberglass CSX4000 cars came with fiberglass floor boards (tub) where the CSX3000 cars had aluminum panels.


As far as the CSX4000 cars, they do come standard with some different parts than the original, i.e. different brakes, shocks, control arms, etc. But, if you want to, you can specify that the car is built with all original parts, orignal style brakes, control arms, diff, etc,. but no one really cres over these details except for a couple of people. Why do you think Kirkham designed a new billet suspension? because there is a greater market for them than the original pieces. They will build you a car identical to the originals if you wanted them to. I believe most people don't build their Kirkham now with all original spec parts, but rather use some improved or upgraded parts.


As far as the gun analogy, I'm not sure about the ruger. If it is constructed identical internally to the original colt, then it is a true replica or reproduction. If Ruger usues their own action design, different from the original colt's, then the ruger would be analagous to a superformance.