Original Daytona Coupe vs original GT40

[Naumoff]

I did a forum search and couldn't find an answer.

If Ford could of gotten the GT40 to perform without Team Shelby's help could it have beaten Shelby's team and the Daytona Coupe at Le Mans.

Not trying to start an emotional debate. I love both cars. Just want to see if the facts show the Coupe as competition or not for the GT40.

[csx700?]

Naumoff
you overlooked (2) small problems :
1) cobra daytona coupes are in the GT class
2) ford GT40s are in the prototype class

[1ntCobra]

Even though you compete within class, you can also look at the overall finishes. Didn't Bob B almost take an overall win with a Daytona Coupe over the Ferarris at one of the last races of the season until Mann made him back off for worries about the tires giving out?

Still the fastest Daytona had a top speed of 187, while the gt40s had top speeds over 200. Who do you think would win a Le Mans?

One of the Daytonas was temporarily modified for a big block for the 64 Le Mans, but was never raced in with the big block. That might have been interesting.

And of course the 427 super coupe was not raced because the 427 cobra could not be put in the gt class since not enough cars were built in time and Ford did not want it competing in the prototype class against the gt40s. So another maybe would have been if the 427 could have been in the gt class, then the 427 super coupe could have raced at Le Mans at the same time as the gt40s (but not in the same class).

[Naumoff]

Not worried about the class difference.

I thought the original Coupe was a 200+mph car that is why I asked the question.


Shelby's Coupes won the 1965 World GT Championship hands down. The Coupes won almost every race they were in. In fact in some of the races, they came close to out running the Ferrari prototypes and the GT 40's. (Ford threw in the towel on the GT40's after the embarrassing 1965 efforts and turned to project over the Shelby American with instructions to win with the GT40's and not the Daytona Coupes. The project ended there and the Coupes became a part of history.

I guess that line answers my question.

But maybe the 427 Coupe?

[Naumoff]

Here is a link to the original specs of the Daytona Coupe.

Top speed 198mph with 390hp 289

http://thecarsource.com/shelby/cobra...onaspecs.shtml

[turnpike boy]

198 may be the calculated top speed; Breedlove went 187 at Bonneville in the 2287 car.

[Steve Cassani]

In Cobra, The First 40 Years, Trevor Legate recounts Ken Miles efforts to modify a Daytona coupe to make the car competitive for overall wins. Miles had won the 1965 Daytona 24 Hour race in a GT40 and Sebring was only a month away. As Legate tells it (page 151):

The bumpy airfield circuit at Sebring was next on the agenda and with a major victory under his belt, Ken Miles could almost choose any car he wanted. Concerned that the circuit could create reliability problems, Ken quietly made a few adaptations to a Daytona coupe which he believed would put it on a par with the GT40. Before he could test his theory, Phil Remington got wind of his project and, backed by Carroll Shelby, put a stop to it. He was determined the coupes would race only for class victories and not chase outright wins against the Ford cars. As a result, Miles was left with little option but to partner Bruce McLaren in a GT40…

The ‘few adaptations’ Miles made are likely not known in any detail. We can conclude that the coupe might have been made to compete with the GT40 at Sebring, a course not as well suited to the Ford car as Daytona. While Miles saw a better chance of his winning two major races in a row in a modified coupe, the prospect of a Shelby-prepared car taking a win from Ford in the US was obviously inconsistent with Shelby’s prior commitment to make the GT40 a winner. From what I’ve read of Ken Miles this is the sort of problem he prided himself in ignoring so I am not surprised to learn that he would act unilaterally in a way that undermined a strategy that kept Ford dollars flowing to Shelby American. Clearly, neither Phil Remington nor Carroll Shelby saw any reason to indulge him.

[Naumoff]

Ford was impressed with the performance of the Coupe and gave Shelby financial backing for a full assault on the European circuit. Five more coupes were needed. Four chassis’s were built at AC Cars in England then shipped to Shelby American for modifications. Shelby American was so swamped with work, the assembly of the coupes was subbed out. From the California factory, two out of the five chassis’s were shipped to Carrozzeeria Gransport in Modena, Italy. The plan was to also ship the prototype with the unfinished chassis to Modena for use as a model. But the prototype ended up in Sarthe, France, for official testing. Ford also sent two new GT40's. The GT40's were the center of attention for the press, Ford billed the GT40's as "the world's most technologically advanced race car." Both cars crashed during testing. The GT40's just weren't stable at speed. One of the GT40 drivers, Jo Schlesser, a French driver, who had crashed one of the GT40's, was given the chance to drive the Cobra Coupe. He loved the car. It handled so much better then the GT40's he was able to drive it to the fastest speed of the testing, 198 mph. Shelby asked him to drive the Coupe in some of the upcoming European races which he eagerly agreed to.

[csx2300]

having driven both in anger, I would say the GT40 is a much faster car - mostly due to its' midengine design, better suspension geometry, and better aerodynamics.

[Jac Mac]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

198 may be the calculated top speed; Breedlove went 187 at Bonneville in the 2287 car.

On reading the chapter on this Bonneville session the salt surface was not in the best condition with the circular course having some damp areas. In early testing on the straight course Greatorex was pulling 6000 rpm which he calculated at 180+ mph. One could assume that with a bit of fine tuning ( which the car apparently could have done with ) and perhaps a small change in rear gear ratio that 200mph could have been well within the cars reach.

Jac Mac

[turnpike boy]

187+ mph was (is?) an FIA record. There ain't no doubt that the car went that fast.

There's an awful lot of speculation about anything else. Roadsters went 198 mph too, but there seems to be an absence of hard proof of this.

COULD it go 198+? - almost certainly, with the right setup. DID it go 198+? dunno, haven't seen the proof of it yet.

[CSX 4027]

Originally Posted by turnpike boy

187+ mph was (is?) an FIA record. There ain't no doubt that the car went that fast.

There's an awful lot of speculation about anything else. Roadsters went 198 mph too, but there seems to be an absence of hard proof of this.

COULD it go 198+? - almost certainly, with the right setup. DID it go 198+? dunno, haven't seen the proof of it yet.

I'm not sure with the aerodynamics of the roadster that it would do 198 off a cliff..

[turnpike boy]

By the way........this is based on the 289 going 7000 rpm in hi gear.........

8.2x15 tire is 29.6" dia. (www.rogerkrausracing.com/oldtire)
29.6" x 3.14 = 7.74'/rev
7000rpm / 3.09 rear gearing = 2265 revs/min
2265 / 60 sec = 37.75 rev/sec
37.75 r/sec x 7.74' = 292.18 '/sec

292.18 '/sec x 0.6818 = 199.2 mph

[Excaliber]

Steve, as for myself I'm convinced Dick Smith did indeed drive to 198 (or more) with original 427 Cobra. The matter has been discussed at length a number of times, when the smoke cleared, the evidence appears to support his claim, in my view.

As to a 289 car having enough horse power to turn 7000 with the high gears, the only way would be in a Coupe body. 200 is achievable with as little as 300 horse, assuming the body shape is right!

Very interesting reading concerning the records the 'lost' Coupe set at Bonneville. During the the 'time and distance' record the Coupe either lost 4th gear or the clutch was slipping to much to use it, I forget. Bottom line, THAT record was set toward the end without using high gear, and it was STILL a record!

[Bill Kesner]

Well......

Getting back to the original question as to whether or not the GT40 without Team Shelby's help could have beaten Shelby's team, I would have to answer that as a big "NO" under the circumstances below.

Prior to Ford handing the GT40 over to Shelby to get the car competitive, the GT40 was not performing as well as it should have. Henry Ford's desire to win Le Mans gave Shelby and his team an unlimited budget to get the car in the winners circle. I honestly believe without Shelby and his team making all the modifications which were necessary to get the car competitive, we would have never seen the 1,2,3 win at Le Mans.

I agree with CSX2300, as he would truly know first hand. After Shelby and his team re-worked the GT40, this car would dominate anything Shelby and his team had in those days, as well as all the others out there at the time.

- Bill -

[Naumoff]

So do you feel that Shelby's unfinished 427 Coupe could have won overall at Le Mans? The Daytona Coupe is a pretty awesome machine and before Shelby's team took over the GT40, the 289 Coupe was not that much behind it.

[turnpike boy]

1. The Daytona was a Shelby American product, through and through, and was fast from the outset; 2. the GT40 in Shelby American's hands became a very fast car.

Shelby American had their sh*t together. A fully developed Super Coupe would truly have been an awesome car, certainly with the potential to win LeMans overall.

Where would a 427 GT, fully developed in Shelby American hands, have pushed the envelope?

[Bill Kesner]

In my opinion,

If the 427 Coupe was set up by Shelby, and ran against Shelby's re-worked
GT40's at Le Mans in the same class if that was possible, I highly doubt the coupe would have out performed the GT40's. Just like CSX2300 said, hard to beat a mid engined car that would have out handled the coupe all over the track.

If the 427 Coupe had run in a different class at Le Mans not competing against the GT40, it may have had a shot at winning its class, if it wasn't driven too hard to keep the 427 alive and kicking.

- Bill -

[turnpike boy]

Originally Posted by Bill Kesner

In my opinion,

If the 427 Coupe was set up by Shelby, and ran against Shelby's re-worked
GT40's at Le Mans in the same class if that was possible, I highly doubt the coupe would have out performed the GT40's. Just like CSX2300 said, hard to beat a mid engined car that would have out handled the coupe all over the track.

If the 427 Coupe had run in a different class at Le Mans not competing against the GT40, it may have had a shot at winning its class, if it wasn't driven too hard to keep the 427 alive and kicking.

- Bill -

I don't disagree with that evaluation, not entirely anyway. I've watched 427 roadsters run against 289 GT's and the GT's do drive away convincingly - but only where there are corners. The roadsters give away nothing on the straights, and clearly accelerated out of the corners with a bunch more vigor than the GT. Now, make that a Super Coupe and I'm not so sure that the mismatch would be so convincing. As to keeping the boat anchor alive, well, durability wan't THAT bad.

However. I do still think that the GT would prove the better car in the long run - as CSX 2300 alludes to, many attributes all go to making it an easier car to drive fast for a long time. And that's what would have it prevail.

[Naumoff]

H&M made 427 survive many 500mile nearly WOT races. And wasn't it the 7 liter MkII GT40 that won at Le Mans first.

Small Blocks blow up too.