351 engine questions

[sapper_g]

I'm planning my Cobra, and looking at engine options. I called a salvage yard today and asked about a 351C, and they more or less laughed and said they never see Clevelands.

How rare are Clevelands, and what can I expect to pay for one?

Which 351Ws are better? I'm seeing SPORTSMAN, SVO, pre-82, etc. How much difference is there in blocks from the 70s vs. the 80s & 90s?

This will be a street car, and I would prefer to have good acceleration rather than high top end speed.

Thanks,
Glenn
sapper_g@yahoo.com

"If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly."

[Aussie Mike]

Hi Glenn,

The Cleveland was only put into production cars in the US for 3 years 71'-73' so it's not surprising there aren't many around over there. We have heaps of them down here since they were used in production vehicles up untill 84'. I'm surprised people from the US aren't buying container loads of them and shipping them home. You can pick up a good 2V runner out of the paper or from a swap meet for about A$600 (US$300). 4V motors are available for a bit more.

The Ford Cleveland is a bit of an Aussie Icon as the 4V motor was supplied in the all conquering GTHO Phase 2 & 3 Falcons. Touring car (sedan) racing is very popular down here and there has been an ongoing battle for 40 years or more between Holden (GM) and Ford. These touring car battles have pretty much polarised the country in their following of the two manufacturers. The racing has now turned into a 2 car formula between the Ford Falcon and the Holden Commadore. I prefered it when it was an all makes formula with more variety of machinery..Oh Well.


Cheers

[Jim Colman]

Glen,
The Cleveland is a whole 'nother animal from the Windsors. Clevelands, at least the ones with the 4v (four barrel) heads are high reving, deep breathing powerhouses. Mike is right about them being somewhat rare in the states. Also, parts are somewhat more expensive for the Clevelands. However, it's fairly easy to get 400 or more ponies out of a Cleveland. Clevelands do tend to suffer from some oiling problems, they tend to pump too much oil up to the heads, causing the main bearings to suffer from oil starvation, but that can easily be fixed.

The 4v heads have massive intake and exhaust ports that, combined with a free flowing intake manifold and headers, can pump a lot of fuel through the engine. This makes for good top end power, but the engines suffers from a low end lack of torque. This really isn't much of a problem in a lightweight car like the Cobra however. The 2v heads have smaller ports and make better torque, but less HP.

I had a 4v Cleveland in my Cobra and loved it. I once missed a shift and the engine went over 8k rpm without missing a beat!!

The Cleveland is a bit larger than a Windsor, but they fit well in a Cobra and look very cool!

Every now and then, Carcraft magazine will run a good article on Cleveland buildups.

I think you could build a good, strong Cleveland for under $4,000.

Cheers
Jim

[pbrown]

Before deciding on an engine, you should contact te local authorities to get the kit car registration rules. some states will require emitions equal to the year of the engine while others will use the year of chassis manufacturer.

That being said, I like the 351W. The 351W has been used in some form or another from around 1969 to 1997 (F250 trucks). Parts are easy to get and you have several options in heads, pistons, etc. The Clevland engine is great but parts availability is limited due to the lack of use. The 289-302(5.0) offers the most in available arts options while the 351W has a bit less. The 351W can be stroked to over 427CI and HP can be very high. The blocks can be found easily at wrecking yards or can be purchased bare or as complete engine from Ford and others. I'm no expert as to the differencebetween the SVO, Sportsman, etc. so I'll let someone else take that one. You should buy a copy of the 2001 Form Racing catalog. You'll find the specs of all of Fords popular engines in the back.

--Pat

[Campy]

Hello Glenn,

I have a 351W. It's a great running engine and as far as I'm concerned, I've got more power then I know what to do with. Although I'm not pushing the better side of 500 ponies, I can blow the doors off most production cars I share the road with.

There are a myriad of post/opinions on the Cleveland / Windsor debate. You can read until your heart's content.
Check out this thread for example! Click here

Here's my dimes worth.
The whole debate makes for good reading and when all the smoke clears one is either left totally confused or, at best, appreciates that there is a considerable difference between the C's and W's. Truthfully, when the dust clears, most of the time the guy running the Cleveland is out front. The bottom line is contingent upon you and only you. What do you plan to do with your car? Will you be racing? If so, why bother with a 351, why not a stroked 460

Short of racing your Cobra, I would give careful consideration to a 351W, primarily because of availability of parts and engines.
(OK Cleveland fans, don't badger me, I know Clevelands are out there) As far as I know a Cleveland will not bring any significant increase in resale value. If you decide not to rebuild it yourself, you can buy a tricked out 351W with plenty of bells and whistles for a reasonable price.

I think we can all agree that the only event a Cobra is sure to loose is the practicality contest.
With this is mind, one decision Cobra builders/Owners are faced with is where to place the proverbial fulcrum on the scale of expenditure vs. expectations. The choice is ultimately yours.

The Cobra is the greatest car ever built. Enjoy your experience!

[rickski]

Let me put in my 2 cents worth. An engine is an air pump. You need to flow air to make power. Production 351W never had as good a cylinder head as the Cleveland and thus was never really thought of as a "performance" engine. That was the past. The wide variety of aluminum cylinder heads changes the equation. I like the 351W because it has 3" main bearings; bigger than a Chevy 454 I believe. Even in stock form it makes for a stout bottem end. Add a pair of free flowing aluminum cylinder heads and you have a fantastic engine. With aluminum cylinder heads and intake manifold it is several hundred pounds lighter than a big block and can make darn near as much power. I have "converted" a few of my non-windsor friends after taking them for a ride in my "mild" (400 hp) Cobra. The wide variety of parts and their ease of availability also make the 351W the best choice in my mind.

[Jack21]

$.02 more.

For a street motor the "W" does a great job, and they're plentiful.

The year block you use is more critical to registering your car, and the emissions requirements your State has, than driving it. Catalytic converters weren't installed until the '75 model year. Some States even allow you to register your car as an Antique Vehicle if it's year of registration is 25 years old or older. And most States don't require emissions certification on cars 25 years old. Try to find a pre '75 block. You don't need a Sportsman or SVO block.

What you will likely retain from the original engine will be the block, front timing cover, rods, and crank if you don't stroke it. Everything else pretty much goes in the dumpster.