Very Frustrated - Engine Problems!

[patrija]

Well, just got back from the local shop. Good shop and found out the manager went to school with my younger brother ... so shouldn't get price screwed. Car's still there. Here's the day's itinerary:

1) Removed the carb this am and did a quick breakdown of it. New gaskets, pin, etc. Everything looked "ok"

2) Remounted the carb. Cleaned up myriad gas leaks by tightening screws, etc. No leaks now. Tried to start, but no luck.

3) Replaced all the plugs. Some of the plugs were gas fouled while others just carbon fouled. Tried to start, still no luck. Hooked up a power boost to the battery since it was starting to turn slow.

4) Started checking for spark and was not getting a spark at the distributor. Constant power going into the MSD 6A, but none coming out. Checked and removed the ignition kill for testing purposes, but no luck.

5) Traced an electrical issue in a wire leaving the MSD box. Wire goes to the spark boost and then to the distributor cap. Ran an aligator clip bypass on the wire and restored power on the other side of the box. Car finally started.

6) Let it run for awhile to clear things out a bit and then took it for a test drive. Definitely not running right. Getting acceleration backfires (flame too) and it really boggs down.

Tonight, he's looking at the timing and power valve.

He also tried to convince me to pull the holley 750 and go with an edelbrock street performer carb for reliability, but going to hold off on that. Just like the "look" of the holley.

Jason

[bran3b]

Sorry to come in late, but your last post struck close to home. I had a similar problem with an MSD distributor/controller/coil on a 351. I finally found the problem by replacing the MSD coil with the stock one. When I checked the MSD coil, everything looked great, same at the local parts counter when they checked it. The car is still running on the stock coil, and I still haven't found a problem with the MSD coil, but I think that it is in the cap extender.

Good luck,

Bran

[Chad Johnson]

For what its worth:
1. The picture of the carburetor looks like there has been backfire(s) through it -------- new power valve for sure. Other than that my guess is electrical.
2. Check all your plug wires for continuity (including the coil wire).

3. Check around the coil tower and the distributor for signs of arching (deterioration of the metal contact).
4. Make sure that the plug wires are on the correct plugs (match the engine firing order)

You or your mechanic have probably checked all of these, but just in case.

Good luck with your problem.

[poorboy]

Patrija;
What do mean by the spark boost??

Poorboy

[patrija]

Poorboy: OK ... remember, talking to an engine idiot. I meant the MSD Blaster Coil.

One other interesting thing I remembered was that until we put the temporary bypass on the wire from the MSD to the Coil (just an inline bypass of the bad connection), we could occasionally hear a small popping inside the distributor cap when we were playing with the wire ... as if it was sparking. Obviously the ignition was in the ON position, but not started. Noise went away after the bypass.

Can I just say that I love this place! Now, let's have a party at my house and get the car running right!

[poorboy]

Patrija;

What you hearing was the MSD firing. When you move the wire it would make a connection then lose it, and that would fire the MSD. That wire will have to repaired, and that could be alot of you trouble.

Poorboy

[patrija]

Right now, the wires have a black plastic sleeve around them. You can see an example in the upper left of the first picture I posted.

In several places, these sleeves have melted right to the wire covering. I'm probably going to look at replacing the sleeves when that wire get's fixed.

[Ibr8k4vetts]

Patrija,
If you are going to keep the Holley you should get a power valve protection kit, they cost about $10.00 you can get it from Summit or Jeg's.
Mike
________
Suzuki GN125E

[Double Venom]

Jason,

May I jump in? Listen to your mechanic. DUMP the Holley. Go with the Edelbrock and you will be a very happy driver.
DV

[Specialk]

I love holley carbs. Easy to work on, and most parts stores have parts for them. Plus it has the original look. Also, all new Holleys have Power valve blow-out protection.

[patrija]

I figured the edelbrock vs. holley debate would come up. I did some research on earlier posts and know there are strong proponents each way.

Part of it is honestly being stubborn .. bought the car "new" with the holley and am still expecting it to work that way. I know .. naive and jaded.

Plus, I honestly do like the look of the holley better than the silver Edelbrock. My mechanic swears it'll be a "turn the key and drive" difference vs. the holley with constant tuning.

DV: Can you elaborate a bit on why?

Jason

[Jeff Frigo]

Maybe your mechanic just wants to make a little more money. Once you figure out what is wrong, your Holley will run for years with no tuning needed what so ever. How many people are familiar with Edelbrocks and have parts for them?




Jeff

[Andy Dunn]

I think Demon, Edelbrock and Holley all make excellent carburetors.




http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...475894-9513529

And I quote the late Smokey Yunick from page 66 of POWER SECRETS

"The carburetor is really a pretty simple device. It doesn't know or care how big the engine is. It is strictly an air-fuel mixer that is calibrated to meter a specific amount of fuel according to the airflow. As more air passes the through the carburetor, it simply meters more fuel into the airstream. And I don't think there's any reason in the world to get tricky with a carburetor. If you are running a stock-block engine, it's probably going to fitted with a Holley carburetor. There are other good carburetors and almost any one of them can be made to produce as much peak power as the Holley."


Andy
http://www.cobralads.com

[chopper]

If I may inject a couple of thoughts here, I have to agree with Mr Chad Johnson's comment about the appearance of your carb indicating previous backfire. The black soot is indicative of backfire. Engine backfire is, in my experience anyway, most likely the result of ignition system or timing problems, so I'd suggest looking at the ignition as the primary source of the your problems. From your previous posts with your "on screen" examination of the distributor (very clever, by the way, to use your digital camera to post photos real time for the participants), it sounds like the distributor primary function is working (presence of sparking from rotor to distributor cap) and the centrifugal advance mechanism is working, or at least is not frozen. I infer this from the fact that you can rotate the rotor slightly with the engine at rest; it should rotate approximately 10 to 12 degrees (translating to 20 to 24 degrees at the crank, since the distributor is geared at ½ the speed of the crank). As for the ignition box, MSD has a checkout procedure on their website for performing rough troubleshooting on their system; perhaps that will give some clues if the problem is in the ignition box. Check them out at http://www.msdignition.com/ and look under the Troubleshooting Guide. Also, don't hesitate to contact the folks at MSD to ask for help. I had problems with my MSD distributor some time back and they were great about fixing it.

However, the backfire will blow the power valve in the carb if you do not have the blowout ball check valve installed in the base. This will lead to the further problems which you have that are evidenced by the black sooty plugs. The new Holleys, those less than about 4 or 5 years old, all have the ball valve installed. Older ones did not but can be so modified. However, from e-mail discussions I have had with Holley tech support, presence of the check valve is not a 100% guarantee that a backfire will not still blow the power valve. If you're so inclined, Willys and Moroso manufacture power valve checkers, which when used with a small vacuum pump, will check the condition of the power valve diaphragm. Jegs carries the Moroso unit (listed in their carburetor accessories section), but it is functionally identical to the Willys tool which I have. It's about $30, and I know new power valves are only $6, but it sometimes help to be able to determine the real root cause rather than change parts and then wonder what really fixed the problem. Also, Holley sells a nice little red book which explains the operation and maintenance of the carbs; it's available at most speed shops. I sympathize with you, buddy; I've had to work through similar problems and it's a bear.

[Bruce Botti]

Jason,
Sorry, but I've been away from Club Cobra for a few days. Everytime I skip a few days, it takes me a week to catch up. Just to clear up a few items:
1. The distributor is a Ford modified by Southern Automotive with a magnetic pickup.
2. Per Bill Parham, the eyelet connected on only one side is normal.
3. The Holley is new (about 2 yeras old) so should have the power valve protection.

I can fully appreciate your frustration. The hard thing to figure is why it ran so great after Bill / SA had it, and now it doesn't. Hopefully your mechanic can fix it, but I would still bring it back to Bill. He is the Ford FE expert. He stands behind his work, but may be hesitant if someone else has played with his baby.

A question to the experts. Would a faulty ignition module in the distributor cause this problem? The only experience that I have had with faulty modules is either the car will not start at all, or it will die after it heats up.

Keep the faith Jason. Between Bill / SA and the experts here, you'll be back on the road in no time.

Take care,
Bruce

[JAM1775]

I agree from the appearance of the carb you have fuel backfire . That color is not richness but unburned backfire fuel. First you must start all tests with cleaned up plugs for ease of starting. I bet you have a blown power valve DUE to the backfiring. I had a SA 406 and found another problem caused the power valve to blow out. The I had two probelms !
Replace the power valve. It is located in the front metering block, hex shaped w/rubber ,brass center abut the size of a quarter. Get the 6.5 rated one. My past SA 406 problem had to do with two things, both distributor related. SA did not secure the "star" in the center of the distributor with a rollpin. I have a mental lapse on the proper term for the "star" but it is the thing sitting on base of the center shaft of your distributor photo, with the cap, rotor removed. Just try to lift it. It should have minimal play in the "shaft only" but should not lift off ! When my motor old SA 406 needed revs the star would slightly rise up, causing misfire.
Despite expectations, the dist cap contacts were not that damaged but the star did cause misfire and it misfired most as it spun above 3000-4000 rpm because it lift up and down. I think I see the little rollpin, installed in the slot on the star's shaft but you may want to double check and make sure it is secure.

Second problem I found . Check the SA provided small harness that adapts the gray Ford distributor to the main harness heading toward the MSD box. This small low voltage harness comes out from your distributor and jacks into a two pronged MSD line about 10" away from the distributor. This adaptor line is replacable as a Ford Duraspark to MSD adaptor in Jegs or any race shop.($20) I found mine to be damaged. Some insulation was slightly cracked causing arching of the low voltage signal from the MSD box to the Duraspark distributor. The cracks were very small, like a spider cracks but both wires were cracked inside the harness. The harness was subjected to some extreme treatment or condition because of the white discoloration/cracks along its length. So, my SA 406 ignition problems caused my SA 406 to run okay at times and misfire at other times. This eventually caused backfire which blew the power valve. These were problems I had to iron out within the first 500 -700 miles of owning my SA 406. It seemed as weird coincidence to me but hey....you are on the hunt ! It does not hurt to check all the little steps. you will eventually track your problem down. The 750 Holley is engine builder Bill Parham's choice of carb for that motor....but that carb's power valve will not sustain more than a few carb backfires before cracking. Replace that first just for insurance at $10. Who knows you may already have resolved a problem but still remain with a blown carb power valve. Clean your plugs, replace the power valve ,check your distributor star and visually scrutinize your wires leading to the distributor for from the MSD. Keep the faith ! NOTE:: That motor has solid lifters. Make sure thay are periodically adjusted once you iron out your start up kinks .

[ERA535]

Patrija:
You are going to let us know what was wrong aren't you?
Pat

[patrija]

Sorry for the delay in getting back on this thread. The family arrived on Wednesday for Thanksgiving and I swore of the computer while they were here.

Wednesday was a progress day with the car, as I was able to drive it home. The local mechanic diagnosed the primary problem of the stuttering and hesitating as being the ignition wire from the MSD 6A to the MSD Ignition Coil. This wire connection was apparently working itself loose causing lack of spark at the distributor during driving and eventually coming permanently loose so it wouldn't start. He fixed this wire, but I'm planning to run a new one. He also changed all the carb gaskets, but it still needs some tuning.

I must also highly commend Southern Automotive again. Susan and Bill called me on Wednesday as soon as they returned home from their vacation. I was of course very impressed with the efforts to reach me as they tracked me down on my cell phone. Being the true expert, Bill diagnosed the ignition wire over the phone in about 5 minutes. Now we'll just wrap up efforts with the carb. I'm definitely one of the faithful!

To remove any confusion, the car was running incredibly well when I brought it home from SA a few weeks ago. There is an earlier post from me to this effect with pictures of the new Turkey Pan that Luis worked on for me.

Biggest learning lesson: Learn and check the easy things first.
Second learning lesson: Be patient and trust the experts.

Thanks everyone!
Jason