E351 Motorsport block (ie 9.2 vs 9.5" deck)???

[Mike Braddock]

I may have found a good deal on another cleveland engine, but it's built on a 'new' Motorsport E351 siamese bore ' block that has a combination of cleveland and windsor features. This block is no longer available through Ford and I was told (by the owner) it was used by nascar teams and such in the '80's. (I thought they used the 9.5" deck blocks with the 2.75" mains so they could use longer rods ?)

Does anyone have any experience with one of these blocks? It's a windsor design (oiling, camshaft, distributor, etc.) with siamese bores (.030 over from Ford, can be bored up to .125) but has a cleveland deck height (9.2") and main bearing diameter (2.75"). It also has 4 bolt splayed main caps, supposedly good for upwards of 800 hp.

Here's a link to the block that has taken its place in the FRPP lineup, although this one is intended for dry sump use only:

http://www.fordracing.com/performanc...6010%2DR352%2A

Down the road I would like to build a fuel injected motor that can survive at 7000 rpm for an open track motor, but my first choice would have been a 9.5" deck block like the N351:

http://www.fordracing.com/performanc...010%2DN351%2A.

This way I could use a nice pair of aluminum windsor heads, plus the EFI would be much cheaper. The main reason I am even entertaining the thought of purchasing this engine is because we have a 351C in our cobra, so this would make a bulletproof bottom end should we even need to build another motor for it. Of course, this would be way overkill as a street motor in our cobra, since we don’t need more than 400 hp. But it would be nice to never again have to worry about having to sonic check a thin-walled C block or have to lose sleep over possible oiling problems that no one can seem to agree on . The down side is this E351 block weighs about 30 pounds more than an old iron C block and it costs big $$$ to get into a set of aluminum heads for it.

So my final question is this: if you were me would you wait and buy a 9.5” deck block and go with aluminum aftermarket heads, so you have a ‘modern’ windsor (now there’s an oxymoron ), or buy this E351 motor as a backup for our roadster and possibly for use down the road in our open track car?

I would really like to hear from someone who has some experience with this block. Thanks for any input guys!

Mike

[750hp]

Mike,
How good is the "good deal"? If you are saving a decent amount of money, I'd jump at it! My SVO block is not siamese bore and it's the 9.5" N351, but I have a few friends that are using the 9.2" SVO block in "street cars" that only get out late at night.....

I always seem to hear about how cheap used Nascar parts are over there. If that's the case, have you considered some old Yates C3L heads? You can get a single plane manifold to suit this combination from Ford, Edelbrock, RDI, even Blue Thunder now (I think!) Any single plane is easily converted to fuel injection when you're ready to go that way.

If you change your mind, but the engine is a genuinely good deal - could you email me please I'm thinking about pulling the 460 out of my old Fairmont and bolting an SVO small block with twin Turbonetics T-76 Big Thumper turbos. 1000+hp is the aim

[Mike Braddock]

Craig,

I'm thinking about pulling the 460 out of my old Fairmont and bolting an SVO small block with twin Turbonetics T-76 Big Thumper turbos. 1000+hp is the aim

You're a sick, sick man . Sure, if I decide to pass it up, I'll let you know. It's in a Maverick drag car the guy built (full cage, tubbed, 9" with 31 spline detroit locker and 4.56 gears, 5 link rear suspension, 5k stall, fuel cell, etc. He's moving out of his shop to a new 3 car garage and needs the space for his NMRA Outlaw 32V Cobra motored '86 mustang GT drag car with a 91mm single turbo . Can you say 1000 hp??

The E351 motor has about a dozen 1/4 mile passes on it. It went 10.20's with a 150 hp shot of go-go juice. I have no interest in a drag car though, so I'm trying to find someone who might be interested in the car. It's set up (obviously) for a 351C and has 1-7/8" long tubes on it.

I'll let you know how it turns out. He's not moving until May, so there's still some time for me to try and find someone interested in the car.

[Mike Braddock]

Craig,

What kind of heads was your friend running on his 9.2" SVO block? I've come across a pair of SVO A3 aluminum heads setup for a solid roller with Manley valves (2.19 / 1.73) and K-Motion springs The only problem is the heads have been decked from the original 65 cc down to 50 cc, so the compression would be way up there. The guy's asking $1200 but I could probably grab them for $1k. Do you or your friend have any experience with these heads? The E351 motor I'm looking at has a pair of iron 4V heads that were ported by Ronnie Crawford and flow around 310 cfm at .6" lift, which is pretty good for an iron head. But that motor's already running 11:1 compression, so I would think the A3 heads would be a no go in that case, unless I change pistons (forged TRW's) or rods (stock 351C shotpeened with ARP studs). Do you have any idea what the low lift flow numbers for stock A3's are? Thanks Craig.

By the way, how's that 9.5" SVO monster coming along ? If I were you I don't know that I could have ever brought myself to bolting on the pan and covering that sweeet bottom end! Who built those beautiful headers and sidepipes? Are those 1-7/8" primaries?? What kind of mufflers are you using? Oh yeah, nice Z-bar setup, too! How does it perform compared to a good 4 link?

Did you ever get a chance to finish up your fuel system? Finally (and I hope you don't mind ), I've got to ask: what's the story on this






Wowzers!!

Mike

[750hp]

Mike, I'm not sure what the story is behind the V12 Ferrari!!! The photo was posted on CC a while back, and I just had to keep it because people wouldn't believe me...

My website's a beauty isn't it I had all good intentions of doing an Andy www.cobralads.com but I found that I didn't have the time,ability or inclination! I just post a few large photos at that poor excuse for an incomplete website to save having to upload them here. If you want to see some more Cobra photos from all over the place, I have a heap stored at http://photos.yahoo.com/pro_398

The last motor built on a 9.2" deck had the latest Yates design ported by Bennett Racing. They cost about $14000 bare from Bennett, and didn't flow the numbers they should have!?! My friend gave them a bit of a massage and picked up nearly 30cfm at full lift.... The car ran a 3.9" stroke billet crank, dry sump, crank trigger etc. First and only meeting at the track and it ran 10 flat before being kicked out. He actually rang a friend in the grandstand while going down the track to say that it launched well!!! What a goose....

I rang my mate today to find out his thoughts about the A3 heads but he wasn't home. I promise to let you know when I found out.

My car is just a rough old thing. I spent FAR TOO MUCH money on the motor. I worked out a budget to build a tidy street Cobra, having factored in numerous little tricks that I wanted to incorporate. I spent the entire car budget on the motor alone This has just had a snowballing effect on the build cost because now I needed a racing transmission (G-Force $5K+), 1350 unis, billet axles, massive intercooler, big dollar fuel system, sophisticated ECU etc etc. All of the time and money is going into the mechanicals at the expense of the body/paint.

I'm glad I did bolt the pan to the motor, because the car actually cam smashing to the floor when a jack seal failed, crushing the pan. It absorbed the blow and the internals were untouched

The exhaust was fabricated by a friend of mine who used to build custom pipes, but retired at age 45 vowing never to do pipes again. Persistence will get you everywhere, so I had him do the headers and the sidepipes. The headers are in fact 1 7/8 mild steel HPC coated, the sidepipes are stainless. He made some perforated tube packed mufflers with 3.5" ID and 5" OD. I'm a bit concerned that my engine tuner wants to run the Motec computer rich on deceleration to cool the cylinder bores during my roadracing outings. This usually results in 2 foot flames out the pipes in other cars he tunes, so the muffler packing might not last long!

The Z-bars have to be equal length top to bottom to work effectively. This prevents the diff from binding up. Running the upper bars backwards is the best option because that puts all the rod ends in compression, which is where they're strongest.

My fuel system as it stands now is:
Triangle Engineering 20 gallon alum cell
-10 to 15psi Carter lift pump
-10 to 3L swirl pot
2x -10s to 2x Bosch M/Sport pumps
Fabricated s/steel Y-Block to Bosch filter
-8 to engine bay
Y-Block to 2x -8 lines to billet 1/2"ID rails
Holley 95lb/hr injectors
2x -6 out to Bosch 2 inlet Regulator
-6 return to swirl pot.

I'm hoping I wont have to use a third Bosch M/Sport pump, but we'll see when it gets onto an engine dyno. That's in a few weeks, and I'll hopefully be able to borrow a digital video camera for that.

Geez - if I can type this month, maybe I should put it on a website

[Mike Braddock]

Craig,

Thanks for the informative update! The guy who built those headers is an incredibly talented and patient man, indeed! That fuel system sounds like a nightmare !! But it sounds like it should get the job done! Yeah, you know your street car project has gotten out of hand when you have to start looking at G-force trannys . I'll look forward to hearing any news you come up with concerning the A3 heads. Thanks again Craig.

Mike

[750hp]

Mike, I spoke to this mate of mine today. He's not overly fussed on the A3s for a street application. He likes to see these heads used with nothing less than 380 cubes with a lot of rpms & compression... He built an A3 head Clevo a couple of months ago with 13:1 comp, .700+ solid roller, 383 cube. It made 660hp @ the flywheel at 7200rpm. The heads flowed 370cfm at .700 at 28". He couldn't remember the low-lift values, but he knew they would be less than your Ronnie Crawford 4Vs...

He said the manifold is a pain to find for an A3 / 9.2" combo. He had a "semi finished" Ernie Elliot manifold for that application. I assume that means it still needs to be port matched to suit.

Anyway, he said the heads can make good power for a specific application (usually drag racing these days), but he wouldn't use them for the street. That's not what I wanted to tell you, but he's built MANY cleveland motors.

He also questioned whether you really needed the SVO block. He builds .030 cleveland blocks converted to 4 bolt without grout that run mid 9s in a 3300lb car naturally aspirated. Granted, he does some pretty clever oil passage revisions, but if you're not planning on going past 7000rpm, he doesn't think you need to spend the $$$ If we can get you to bolt a supercharger on, then that might change

My exhaust guy is awesome. He hadn't seen the car, and you'll notice in some photos how far the driver's footbox extends past the passenger. I forgot to tell him how hard it would be to miss the steering shaft, brake lines, engine mounts, starter motor AND an extra 8" of footbox He took one look at it (for about 2 minutes) then drew me a diagram of which pipes would go where. Over the month that he had the car, the diagram never changed. It was perfect!!!! Clever guy!

If you want any more detail about Clevo combinations, I'd be happy to ask. I didn't really what to tell him about how you drive your Cobra, but I figured you weren't looking for a massive rpm / high compression motor for your street car...

[Bob Putnam]

I think the photo is of an ERA with a 3L Ferrari installed. It was done in southern California in the mid-eighties. You should see the exhaust - 6 pipes going into each collector.

[Mike Braddock]

Craig,

Thanks for the quick reply. I've done a bit of research on the A3's and it turns out SVO made 3 different aluminum canted valve heads (non-Yates heads). The A3 has the largest ports of all the Ford Motorsport "high port" heads (A3, B351, C302). They have pretty high flow numbers right out of the box. Here’s a good table assembled by Dan Jones comparing the 2V, 2V with 4V valves, 4V and A3 heads:

http://realbig.com/detomaso/1999-09/1157.html

Yeah, the SVO block is overkill for what I need now, but for the price of the motor, I like the idea of getting a bulletproof bottom end that can take whatever I would like to build down the road (ie a nice 396 stroker ). The A3 heads do indeed come alive with more displacement and higher rpm (8k+). But I’ve talked with two guys that have them on stock displacement high compression 351’s (“street” cars) that say they work very well—kind of in between the 2V and 4V iron heads at low rpm flow. Then they REALLY come alive at high rpms. I’m thinking the A3 block with the 9.2” SVO bottom end would make a nice combo for the street with around 396CI. I also like the ability to run higher compression with the A3’s without fear of detonation problems. On the other hand, a low compression YS trim blown smallblock running a sheetmetal upper and SpeedPro FI would be way too cool . I have to leave to fly back to FL now but I’ll talk with you some more on this later Craig. Thanks again.

Mike

PS Bob, thanks for the info on that beautiful creation!

[Daniel Jones]

>Thanks for the quick reply. I've done a bit of research on the A3's
>and it turns out SVO made 3 different aluminum canted valve heads
>(non-Yates heads). The A3 has the largest ports of all the Ford
>Motorsport "high port" heads (A3, B351, C302).

Yes. However, be aware there were also additional variants. One
of my A3 sets is a "Phase 1 3/4" set which combines a narrower B351
intake port with an A3 exhaust port.

>They have pretty high flow numbers right out of the box. Here’s a
>good table assembled by Dan Jones comparing the 2V, 2V with 4V
>valves, 4V and A3 heads:

Hmmm, where have I heard that name before?

>http://realbig.com/detomaso/1999-09/1157.html

You can also see some pictures of a few of my high port intakes and
heads at: http://www.panteraplace.com/page35.htm

Craig's mate is right about the supply of intake manifolds for the
A3 heads. Most of the Ford Motorsport intake manifolds (Roush and
Edelbrock) were cast with C302 intake ports. The A3 intake has a
wider port. The only high port intake that I'm aware of that fits
the A3 (as cast) is the Edelbrock A331 (not to be confused with the
Roush A331). However, you can run the other high port intakes (A331,
B351, etc.) if you don't mind the port mismatch. Also, since the A3
intake port is essentially a raised floor 4V port, it shares it's
port width and roof with the 4V. That means you can use any 4V intake
if you weld or epoxy up the port floors to match. The Holley Strip
Dominator is a good candidate for this.

As far as streetability goes, the A3's might give up some low end
response to the narrower C302B's but the ports are still smaller
than a 4V Cleveland, so it's not that big of deal. They do come
alive with more cubes though. I've got a set waiting to go on a 408
cube Cleveland stroker for my Pantera. The A3's are popular among the
Pantera crowd because they share the 4V combustion chambers, valve
train, and pistons and there are off-the-shelf headers available.
Yates heads require custom everything and are several times more
expensive out the door. They also have good flow out of the box and
can be used without expensive porting. Of course, porting can up
the flow (into the 350-370 CFM range).

>I've come across a pair of SVO A3 aluminum heads setup for a solid
>roller with Manley valves (2.19 / 1.73) and K-Motion springs

Ignore the springs that are on the head and use whatever your cam calls
for.

>The only problem is the heads have been decked from the original 65 cc
>down to 50 cc, so the compression would be way up there.

The Motorsport castings are fairly thick but aluminum is less rigid
than iron so I usually pass on ones that have been milled a lot.

>Does anyone have any experience with one of these blocks? It's a windsor
>design (oiling, camshaft, distributor, etc.) with siamese bores (.030 over
>from Ford, can be bored up to .125) but has a cleveland deck height (9.2")
>and main bearing diameter (2.75"). It also has 4 bolt splayed main caps,

These blocks will often use common diameter cam bearings and require a
custom oil pan (the pan layout is similar to a Windsor but one of the
rails does not match). When the seller calims wet sump, verify there's
a pad for the pump. Many run an external pump with wet pan. Also, the
block may have no provisions for an oil filter (use a remote set-up).

Dan Jones

[Mike Braddock]

Dan,

Thanks for the update--it's a real treat to speak with a cleveland authority . Have you finalized the cam specs for your 408? Did you sonic check your XE block yet? Yeah, I was worried about so much material being milled off this set of A3 heads as well. The guy's asking $1200 for the pair, so I guess I'll keep looking for a set. Today I found a guy who has a set of C-302 heads and a matching Roush intake for (gulp) $2900. They've been messaged by Indy Head Services, but I don't think I'm ready to drop that kind of coin yet on my motor. As for the E351 motor, I'm still giving it some consideration. It's definitely a wet sump running an OEM oil pump and I believe it uses a windsor pan.

Can you tell me approx. how much taller a 4V torker manifold is than an Edelbrock F351 2V? I'm guessing 1-1/2". I think the additional air cleaner height would be the only clearance issue I would have if I decide to buy this motor and drop it in my cobra.

Currently I'm running a mild 2V headed cleveland, 9.5:1 compression, E351 intake, etc. Maybe 340 hp. I'd like to add some more hp, but not just at the top end, so I too was thinking about going with a stroker kit. But after speaking with some people about it, I became confused as to whether I should run 2 or 4 barrel heads. During my research I stumbled across this E351 motor and now I'm considering buying it and installing a stroker kit to use with the E351 block and the mildly ported 4V heads that are on it. Plus even with the extra stroke, I think this block could handle the stress of turning moderate rpms--maybe 6800 peak, shifting at 6500. What kind of rpm do you play to turn your 408/XE Dan? Thanks again for all the info.

Mike

[Daniel Jones]

>Have you finalized the cam specs for your 408?

No, I'm waiting until I have the heads flow tested. I've got 10 or
12 sets of heads to flow test at the same time and was planning on
doing them all at once. However, dad's valve grinding equipment is
400 miles away so progress has been slow. I'll probably just bench
test 3 or 4 sets for now so I can get moving on the project.

>Did you sonic check your XE block yet?

No, it's down at a buddy's shop and he's waiting until I finish the
heads and pick the cam.

>Today I found a guy who has a set of C-302 heads and a matching Roush
>intake for (gulp) $2900. They've been messaged by Indy Head Services,
>but I don't think I'm ready to drop that kind of coin yet on my motor.

Prices vary but that's the sort of range for a very good set of ported
ready-to-bolt on heads and matching intake. I've lucked into some
excellent deals though and have got them for as little as $750 a pair
for high port heads and $175 for a matching intake.

>Can you tell me approx. how much taller a 4V torker manifold is than
>an Edelbrock F351 2V? I'm guessing 1-1/2". I think the additional air
>cleaner height would be the only clearance issue I would have if I
>decide to buy this motor and drop it in my cobra.

It is indeed about 1 1/2" taller. The Torker also works best with
a spacer but it's not really my favorite intake. I prefer the Holley
Strip Dominator to the Torker. It makes better top end and works more
smoothly down low. The Holley is currently out of production but is
supposedly going to be reintroduced.

>Currently I'm running a mild 2V headed cleveland, 9.5:1 compression,
>E351 intake, etc. Maybe 340 hp. I'd like to add some more hp, but not
>just at the top end, so I too was thinking about going with a stroker
>kit. But after speaking with some people about it, I became confused
>as to whether I should run 2 or 4 barrel heads.

For milder applications and stock displacements, I like 2 barrel heads,
particularly the closed chamber Aussie 2V's. With a bowl cleanup, port
matching, and a larger 2.1" intake valve, they'll support 400-425 HP
and still be streetable (Weiand Xcelerator 2V intake, Comp 282S cam,
flat top piston, 1 3/4" headers, etc). For strokers, the 4V's are the
way to go unless you are willing to put some time and/or money into
porting the 2V heads. Stock 4V heads flow nearly 300 CFM (292 CFM on
Jim Kuntz's Superflow) on the intake side and will pick up another 30
CFM with the usual triple angle valve job and back cut valves. Stock
2V's flow around 210 CFM and take quite a bit of work to get over
250 CFM. With the extra cubes, the 4V port velocity isn't really an
issue, particularly in something as light as a Cobra.

>What kind of rpm do you play to turn your 408/XE Dan?

I'm camming it to peak at 6000 RPM as that's all I should need to make
the 500 HP goal with the A3 heads. It should be safe above that but
given the 4" stroke, I plan to keep it below 6500 RPM. A guy I know
used to drag race a 13.5:1 compresion 400 with 4V heads and used to
turn 7500 RPM through the traps.

>Thanks again for all the info.

In case you haven't seen them, I put together some basic 351C building
tips at: http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/351Ctips.html

I really should update them but they'll have to suffice for now.

Dan Jones