351w stroker advice needed

Draco · #1 (**permalink**) 02-13-2002, 06:22 PM

I'm just starting my project, I have a 351W. I am researching which stroker setup would best suit my needs. Any input would be appreciated. I have been considering the 393 or 408. I have also read about the 427 stroker. Who has what and what are the benefits. I would like something that is streetable but can still slither whenever I feel the need!

Draco

hound dog · #2 (**permalink**) 02-13-2002, 07:19 PM

After running some numbers through the engine program I have, I decided that 393 is enough. With good heads, mid range roller cam, 750 carb. on a dual plane you can make way over 500 ft/lbs torque. That's enough to set one of these 2200 lb. cars on it's ear. Don't forget that the cubic inches are coming with the same bore size as the 302 and the rod ratios to get a windsor up to 427 are getting pretty tight. So if you gotta stroke it, I'd stay at 393 and call it good.
Another point you may want to consider is that your horsepower seems to want to stay "about the same" as your stroke gets longer. I've read on this forum that if you are going to run on the road courses that you may wish to have more horsepower than torque. If you stroke it you will have the opposite. There are so many variables that the pros and cons are endless. Hard to beat pure gut wrenching torque on the street though.

h dog

Brad Pfeifer · #3 (**permalink**) 02-13-2002, 07:55 PM

Draco,

Greetings to our Canadian friends! I don't know if I can be helpful, but wanted to offer my opinion.

What you build is largely dependent on what you plan to do with the car - and it is largely dependent on geometry. Street cars will need something different than track cars, and displacement geometry will affect life span.

A 351 stroked to 392/393 ci will surely impress you. Ford feels it is reliable enough to market as a crate motor. You don't say what kind of Cobra you are leaning to, but Mark at Superformance in Ohio has said they have had great success with the 351-stroked 408.

I have a 351 stroked to 427 and have heard all the scary stories about rod angles, maximum displacement, yada, yada. I am building a car that I will occasionally drive on the street, take to shows, and maybe take to the track to push it a little. I am not concerned with building a 100,000 mile motor. I am concerned with building a strong, reliable motor. That comes from putting the motor together correctly and paying attention to detail more than it does with pushing the envelope.

I agree with hound dog though, a 393 is probably plenty. Save the extra money and put it towards going to a driving school. Having the horsepower doesn't matter if you don't know how to use it.

Brad

Rodney · #4 (**permalink**) 02-13-2002, 08:16 PM

Draco I have a 1969 351w, bored and stroked to 377cid with TFS heads and rollerized valve train, Good for 430hp. All components are from Coast performance in California, they offer many different stroker kits from mild to wild! Check em out!

CMansfield · #5 (**permalink**) 02-13-2002, 09:09 PM

Draco,
I have the 392 but have Edelbrock Victor Jr. heads, instead of the GT40s that come with the ford crate motor. Performer RPM intakes and Eagle H rods with a Holley 750. I went with this engine because of reliability and the torque which makes it very streetable and is how I use it most of the time. but get your foot into it and HOLD ON!! As I undestand it, this is pretty much the engine that Dennis Olthoff did so well with at One Lap of America in 99 which shows its flexibility.
Good Luck,
Chas

Draco · #6 (**permalink**) 02-13-2002, 09:13 PM

Thanks Guys, you've given me alot to chew on. The driving school will make my wife happy in the cobra and especially in the minivan.

Draco

Draco · #7 (**permalink**) 02-13-2002, 09:17 PM

CMansfiel did you consider the air gap intake?

Draco

Draco · #8 (**permalink**) 02-13-2002, 09:19 PM

Hounddog, which engine program are you running and where can I find one?

Draco

CMansfield · #9 (**permalink**) 02-13-2002, 11:47 PM

Draco,
I did not consider the Air Gap, I think that with the higher level of the Carb flange, there would have problems with hood clearance.
Chas

Jeff Frigo · #10 (**permalink**) 02-14-2002, 12:01 AM

Draco:

Read the following thread.

Desktop Dyno

hound dog · #11 (**permalink**) 02-14-2002, 05:29 AM

OK Draco,
Lets give you some information to chew on. First of all I'm using Dyno 2000 from www.motionsoftware.com. The numbers below are from my engine workup using the items I specified in the previous post.
351 cu in 518 hp@6,000 506lb/ft@4,500
393 cu in 519 hp@5,500 537lb/ft@4,500
408 cu in 520 hp@5,500 549lb/ft@4,000
427 cu in 518 hp@5,500 567lb/ft@4,000
Another deciding factor in going the 393 route was that Speedway motors had a stroker kit for about $1,100 which included h-beam forged rods. The other kits I found were much more expensive. If that 393 won't move a cobra I'll quit!

Good luck,
h dog

Draco · #12 (**permalink**) 02-14-2002, 09:32 AM

G'Day Jeff, Hound dog, Chas

You guys have been a great help, the numbers seem to tell the story. I'm going to check out Speedway Motors, the blocks getting checked and preped so I better get working. Time flies when you are having fun and crawls when you are waiting!

Draco

Jim Downard · #13 (**permalink**) 02-14-2002, 09:57 AM

Hey all, I found a place called indymustang in Indianapolis that builds motors. I wanted a stroker, then didn't like the prices. After that I was going to build my 358 windsor. Then I found this guys web page on clubcobra and was wondering some opinions on his chosen items. TRW forged pistons, King Racing bearings, Wolverine blue racer cam and lifters 292/512, Cloyes double roller timing chain, Scat stroker crank, arp bolts, World Products windsor sr. iron heads (2.02/1.60) pocket ported to flow 255 cfm, 3/8" studs and guideplates, and Crane roller rockers with hardened pushrods. Was thinking of going this route and I can specify my compression ratio. I was thinking of 10:1, as it should be happy on 94 octane pump gas. I will also have to use the Edelbrock performer (not Performer RPM) for hood clearance reasons. I'm thinking this will hurt my hp some but it should still tear on the street. What do ya all think of the package. Should I move on it or not. $3400.00 Long block + shipping. He says 4 week build time and that already has me into warm weather. Oh yea, he tries to find '72-'74 blocks for his motors.

Let the comments commence.

Jim Downard

CMansfield · #14 (**permalink**) 02-14-2002, 11:21 AM

Jim,
Sounds like a winner, I don't know the performance differences between the Sr. and Jr. heads, but you will be carrying some additional weight with the iron heads. Then again at about 500 hp and the same torque are you really going to be able to tell the difference. I bet not.
Be safe.
Chas

Wayne Maybury · #15 (**permalink**) 02-14-2002, 11:33 AM

Draco

My 351W is +.030" for a displacement of 357 cu.in., Comp cam, roller rockers, Wiesco pistons, Ford SVO heads, 750 Holley on a Performer RPM dual plane intake. It produced 472 HP and over 440 lbs of torque on the dyno. I'm not sure how much engine you want but it is not very difficult for a good engine builder to get these Windsors near 500 HP without stroking.

If you are ever in the Montreal area, drop me an email and I would enjoy showing you my Johnex.

Wayne

Jim Downard · #16 (**permalink**) 02-14-2002, 12:34 PM

Hey CMansfield, Yea, I know iron heads are heavier and aluminum seems to be a popular trend, but seems like a lot of old schoolers around here think the ony two benefits aluminum have over iron are weight savings and a pretty shiney look. However, with a car weighing 2500# and having around 450-500hp, I think my biggest concern is going to be traction, wouldn't you agree. I'm still now sure what compression ratio to ask the engine to be built at. I'd like to go as high as possible without having to worry about detonation using alchohol added fuels. I've heard from some that 10:1 is as high as I should go given the unknown quality of some fuels out there, any comments.

P.S. I can smell the tire smoke already. Ha Ha. I LOVE IT!!!!

Draco · #17 (**permalink**) 02-14-2002, 04:21 PM

Thanks Wayne, I am so close I will make a special trip this summer. I may come down for the first Montreal CART race. I am considering a Johnex ( I took the tour last summer) after I saw Willis's. You can find his on the International dupont paint calender for 2002. It looks awsome! Why do most owners with a 351w use the preformer intake, has anyone tried the airgap or can anyone confirm its too high?

Draco

niles · #18 (**permalink**) 02-14-2002, 04:30 PM

D:

Go with 393 ci.

Thats what Southern engine in Atlanta goes with and they warrant them.
10:1 in fine for pump gas if built right; ie zero deck height; .035 in quench, small chambers etc. Just don't breath the smoke.
gn

Jack21 · #19 (**permalink**) 02-14-2002, 04:52 PM

Jim D,

Just a few comments. I'd be inclined to nix the Wolverine cam in favor of a Crane, Comp, or Crower (one of the big three) retrofit hydraulic rollers. I've got the Comp 224/224 in an unstroked 351W. The World Products W.SR. (Jr. is for 302s) is a decent and likely the only Windsor iron head available. You trade off perhaps some out-of-the-box performance with the iron head (over aftermarket aluminum) for some reliability advantages. The motor obviously is heavier. Keep the compression about 9.5:1 for pump gas w/carburetor. Aluminum absorbs heat faster than iron, and can go 10:1. Machine shop that did my engine recommended steel instead of aluminum roller rocker arms for street use. I used Comp Cams steel Pro Magnums.

Stroker? If you're just now doing an engine build up, the difference in cost from a 351 to a 393 is so minimal you might as well go for it. If you're thinking hydraulic cam now, and upgrading to a hydraulic roller later, have the little bit of milling and clearancing to the lifter valley done now, so the cam change later is a straight bolt in.

Nowthen! Hood clearance with a 351W, using an Ede Performer RPM (or Weiand Stealth) in a Classic Roadsters is NOT a problem. It's only a problem if you use the 302 motor and frame mount setup on your 351. The 351 needs to be mounted 3/4" - 1" lower in the frame using newer style motor & frame mounts for the 351. (Mine fits just fine.) DV (Classics by Elete) will sell you a set of these new mounts. Go to the Classic Roadsters section of this forum. I used the new Energy Suspension polyurethane motor and trans mount, and reworked the frame mount. Engine stays solidly in place as opposed to flopping around with the rubber mounts.

Also solved a clutch linkage problem, and power steering component selection issue when you come to that. Oh yeah. Don't install your CR supplied sidepipes until you read the editorials on what they found when they cut one open.

JBAIRD · #20 (**permalink**) 02-14-2002, 07:28 PM

I had a Keith Craft built custom 408 stroker in SPF #907 and It dyno'ed at 578 HP and 565 pound ft. of torque. The motor had balls and Beleive me when I tell you this!!. Sports man block, so we could only go .030 over and the crank was a 4" stroke. Don't go more than this on the stroke. If you want more cubes you need a 4 bolt SVO block that you can BORE more and still go with a 4" stroke. Most of the 427 strokers you are hearing about are either stock production blocks that are .030 over with a 4.1" CRANK. These stroker motors are awesome. My new stroker is a 418 CID (4"King Billit steel crank and .080 over on the W SVO 4 bolt main block. Huge Brodix Heads. Titanium valves, roller cam,Super Victor intake. Should dyno about 650. GO STROKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!