Another Distributor question

[wilf leek]

I have found that, even with two heavy silver springs in it, my MSD Billet dizzy has all mech advance in by 2600, which is too early - I was aiming for 3000 rpm.

Anyone else had this problem or know the cure? I guess even heavier springs might be the answer but don't know where to go to get the right weight.
In any case, this is a long way off the MSD published advance curve for these springs.

[WYT VNM]

I use the MSD Billet in my 428. I don't remember which spring combination I have in, but I do know that NIETHER is the heavy spring. I get full advance right at 3000 rpm. Had to change out the heavies (which came installed) to get the engine to come to life. I have no spark knock, and it cranks begrudgingly when hot.

I have 10 degrees initial, and use the colored stop for 24 degrees distributor advance. This is a great setup on my engine.

I can't answer why yours would advance so fast; call MSD???? Is it really to much on your engine??

[chopper]

Not to question your mechanical abilities, Wilf, but are you sure you have the two heavy silver springs? The two light silver springs, according to my instruction manual, will give exactly the results you report, full advance by 2600 rpm. Also, keep in mind that if you are using the largest bushing (the black one), you will reach the maximum advance to a lower rpm (at a correspondingly lower amount of advance) as depicted in the graphs.

Also, as much as we'd like, the springs and bushings are mass-produced pieces and may not meet the specs. It is possible that you are in fact using the correct springs but the springs are defective. You may want to contact MSD and I'm sure they will be happy to send you another set of springs if you feel the ones you have are defective. I've dealt with them about a problem I had with my distributor and they were extremely helpful with resolving the issue.

[wilf leek]

Chopper - I know I am English, and thus automatically deficient in the ways of proper engines with 8 cylinders and more than 2 litres big, but I do know the difference between the light and heavy silver springs!! But it was a good thing to check.

In actual fact, I believe I have sorted the mystery. When my car was on the rolling road, it really wanted more advance at lower revs, in fact it would probably have been better with a vacuum advance unit. So I made up a special bushing, larger than the largest std MSD one, to restrict the total mechanical advance even more. Then I set the ignition at 35/36 degrees at 3000 rpm, and left the static or idle timing to be wherever it wished, In actual fact it runs out at around 22 degrees btdc.
The result of this, now that I look more closely at the MSD curves, is to bring all the advance in earlier, hence the results I am getting. Engine starts OK at this setting - no kickback, and runs just fine.
I might set to work now to lighten the arms inside the dizzy to trim it back a bit.
Thanks for your help.

[chopper]

Mr. Leek, I in no way intended to cast aspersions upon your mechanical abilities. Having owned a British sports car (1980 Spitfire 1500), I can say without fear of contradiction that anyone who can keep one of those running must indeed be a first rate mechanic. I have the highest regard for the generations of the British motoring public who have successfully (if temporarily) exorcised the ghosts of the Prince of Darkness from their beloved automobiles. But having dealt with the springs and bushings which MSD supplies, I know it is pretty easy to mistake one "color" for another since they all end up looking grey in the end. Glad everything worked out.

[wilf leek]

Chopper - no worries as our Oz brethren might say. I hadn't taken any offence, just was using the quick reply form and had no access to the relevant smilies!

Yes - I have battled mightily in the past with the Prince of Darkness, and he has, 90% of the time, been banished from my bolides.
Only problem I have now is gas at $6 a gallon!

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Wilf,
Another thing to check would be the tachometer. In all the cars I've had only 1 was acurate. A good test set or digital tach may find you are actually at 3,000 rpm instead of 2,600. Most needles are dampended so the needle doesn't bounce, this also makes the tach slower to react.I use a msd shift light as it is instant compared to my autometer tach that is 400 rpm slower at 6,000 rpm.
Perry.

[Jack21]

Here, Here.

Many of us "Yanks" cut our sportscar teeth on MGA's, MGB's, TR3's, TR4's, Austin Healy 3000's, and Jag's. And 'ol Shel wasn't the only one who wondered if that diminutive little car would go faster with a V8 in it. 327ci Healy's ruled the street.

Perhaps, in retrospect, we were repaying the favor when certain British Rolls Royce engines made airplanes go faster. Each cylinder was about 2 liters, and this engine had 12 of them.

Anyway, a large engine like your 408 in a light car needs the advance to come in quickly. Having all your advance in by 2600 RPM is not too fast unless the engine pings. Total advance should be 34 - 36 deg.

And at $6/gallon, you might consider getting a vacuum advance distributor (dizzy?) for a few more MPG when cruising.

[Mr.Fixit]

Iagree with the previous statement:


Anyway, a large engine like your 408 in a light car needs the advance to come in quickly. Having all your advance in by 2600 RPM is not too fast unless the engine pings. Total advance should be 34 - 36 deg.

I always have all the advance in by 2500-2800 rpm Even my 3600 pound chevelle with an automatic likes all the curve in by 2500 rpm, same rpm as the converter.

[wilf leek]

Guys - thanks one and all - it always amazes me to rediscover the breadth of knowledge and amount of helpfulness that exists here.

Jack21 - you reminded me about that tie up between cars and planes:

UK car + US engine = terror of the streets
US 'plane + UK engine = terror of the skies

Funny how both are iconic and have ardent followings. Shame there's no such combinations going on these days. The closer the UK gets politically to mainland Europe the closer I feel to the USA.

[Jack21]

The Cobra was, and still is a UK car with a US engine. AC is still making them, and you can't finish a Cobra without some UK parts. Lucas lights, windshield wipers, and OEM toggle switches. The windshields are made in UK. Jag rear ends used in some are UK. Came as a big disappointment to some when Ford bought Jaguar. If I wanted a Ford, I'd buy a Ford. If I wanted a Jaguar, I wouldn't want a Ford. Y'know?

And it seems to me that some Boeing airplanes are usin Rolls Royce engines to this day.

There's a little settlement in Williamsburg, Virginia called Colonial Williamsburg that preserves and recreates a British Colonial settlement circia 1774. Interesting. There's also another one near Boston that recreates colonial life circia 1620.

Another funny story you'll appreciate. A UK exchange student, friend of my daughter, spent some time with us. She was trying to explain something, and I was having difficulty understanding her. "Will you please speak the Kings English", I said. She rolled on the floor laughing for about 20 minutes. Then asked, why we called it "The Kings English". As was explained to me by my father when I babbled as a youngster and was asked to "Speak the Kings English" meaning more clearly. During colonial times, several languages were used, French, Dutch, and English predominantly. The Official language of the land was made to be English; The Kings English, as England had a king at the time. And it's been called that ever since.

[wilf leek]

Jack21 - I too had mixed feelings when Ford bought Jaguar. However, my feelings now are that it was the best thing that ever happened to them. Build quality has improved beyond belief, the cars now come close to the top of the UK JD Power surveys, when they used to be falling off the bottom.
New models are coming in - the next XJ car (early 2003) will be all aluminium, and the XJR will push the BMW M5 in terms of outright performance. The MKII version of the "S" type is the car it should have been from the start. The "X" type is rivalling the BMW 3 series. (although I am really, really, not sure about front wheel drive in a Jag!) And on top of that, the new small roadster is confirmed for production.
And all the time, the heritage has been maintained. Nope - Ford has been good for Jaguar imho.

And yes - some of my NY friends use the expression "The Kings English" and it rolls me up every time.

[SCOBRAC]

Are you sure those are not metric timing settings??

Just joking..