overheating 427 sideoiler

[steve meltzer]

I'm really stumped here, and would appreciate any and all help. I have a 427 SO, built by Southern, just installed in my Kirkham. The engine was run (by Southern) prior to my purchase. I doubt that there are 25 miles total on the car/engine to date, because of the rapid climb in temp, regardless of whether it's on the road or running in my garage as I try to sort this out. It has never (tho' it's had a short life) run properly. As noted, the gauge climbs rapidly to 90C, then continues to climb to 110C if I don't shut it down. Here are the other specifics, followed by some temps I took with my IR gun at shut down.

1) new radiator from Kirkham and all new hoses and metal connectors from them as well.
2) new aluminum water pump, Southern
3) 60/40 distilled water/DexCool
4) New Robert Shaw fail safe 180 T-stat with 2 holes drilled in, tested multiple times and works fine. The sensor faces the aluminum intake, the "tit" faces the overflow tank.
5) New and tested 14# cap
6) Ignition timing is about 34 (BTDC) at 3200 but even when advanced slightly, the symptoms are unchanged.
7) I thought that I had an airpocket, so I sl. opened the temp sensor in the intake, and coolant, but no air, came pouring out.

With the temp guage in the car at about 100C: (careful now, the other values are in Farenheit)
The intake temp at the sensor is about 180F (?? 'cause it's aluminum?)
The temp at the overflow tank's neck is 210F
The upper radiator hose is 170F
The lower hose is 130F!
and coolant spewing from the overflow hose is COLD!

Sounds like a circulation issue and that the radiator isn't even in the game. Could it be the WP, tho' not leaking, as is classic.
Help! thanx steve meltzer


When the temp on the gaug

[Bruce Edwards]

Have you checked for water flow? I have seen some water pumps that the impeller has come lose.
You do not say how long it takes to get hot. Do you have a fan over ride and if you turn it on does it take longer for the engine to heat up?

[Brent Mills]

Sounds like air in the system, but looks like you've already been thinking that direction.... Have you tried without the thermostat?

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Steve;

I would start the process of elimination,my suggestions would be as follows;

1. take out the thermostat completely and take off the radiator cap and see if you have water flow thru the radiator....
2. get another water temp gauge and stick the sending unit probe into the top of the radiator as the water flows in and check the temp of the water coming into the radiator...

If all checks out replace the thermostat and try again...You may also want to check out the temp gauge in the car,you can take the sending probe out of the intake and stick it in a small pot of boiling or near boiling water to test it......

hope this helps..........

David

[mr0077]

I'm with Bruce, I think the water pump isn't moving water, and not sure how you could (easily) check it short of pulling the pump...maybe rig up a (BIG) tub of water and drop the lower hose into it, crank it up and see if water is pumped through the motor and radiator after the T-stat opens (or run it without the t-stat). May be simpler to just pull and inspect the water pump. The neck temp being 40 degrees higher than the upper hose seems to support no flow, as they are maybe 10 degrees apart on my motor at operating temp.

[Ibr8k4vetts]

Are your pulleys stock or underdrivers?
Mike

[Tom Kirkham]

Steve,

Most of the 427 engined cars will overheat if left idling. Is the fan on? Is the fan working? Also check the direction of the air flow. You can do this by putting a piece of paper or a thread behind the fan see which way it is pulled. The wet finger test is not good enough. It is a very easy mistake to wire the fan in backwards so the fan is pushing air when it should be pulling. If this turns out to be the mistake I am sorry for the grief we have given you.

Now for some data analysis.

What is the ambient temp?
How are you measuring the other temps? IR, Hg thermometer, thermocouple, or ?

When you say the "coolant spewing from the overflow is cold" tells me you have a radiator cap problem of some sort.

If you hook up a pressure gage (a cheap oil pressure gage will work just great) into the water port on the intake manifold, that will tell you if the water pump is working. It will also tell you if your thermostat is opening.

Hope this helps

[Lew Ledyard]

Does the bottom radiator hose collapse when under (negative) pressure?

[steve meltzer]

just can't thank everyone enough for your advice and effort. here's more.info:

1) the temp rises very rapidly, certainly within the 10 minute range, driving or in the garage at idle (but with blipped throttle.)

2) t-stat must be opening , as evidenced by the very high temp on the other side (the neck of the overflow tank). I could be wrong, but I don't think that's "where the money is". (Sutton's Law)

3) I've never tested the system w/o the thermostat, and I might, but I just don't think that's it. (see #2 + my stubborn personality)

4) I'm running bone stock everything, including pulleys.

5) Can I run the lower hose into a big tub of water with the t-stat in, and get an accurate determination about function the WP?

6) Note to Thomas Kirkham: thanx for your help (again!). I can't see how this has anything to do with your really excellent work, but appreciate your wilingness, as always, (and everyone else's) to pitch in and help me solve this conundrum.

7) What are the chances that this is an air pocket problem, despite the fact that, with the car level, no air came from the coolant temp sensor outlet in the intake?

8) What are the chances that it is a bad, tho' brand new, water pump?

steve

[Tom Kirkham]

Steve,

More thoughts:

1. What is the oil temprature doing?

2. In answer to number 5, yes but what a mess! I would check the water pressure. It will show you if the water pump is working and if the thermostat is opening. This is an easy and quick check. Much better than making a mess by removing the lower radiator hose or worse the water pump. This test would also show you if your radiator cap is working correctly.

3. In answer to number 6: Thank you. Did you check the fan? Even Toyota has recalls now and then.

4. By drilling a hole in the thermostat and bleeding the air from the water temp fitting you should not have much of an air lock. That is why you should always put the hole at the top. Do you have the small bypass hose that connects the water pump to the intake manifold hooked up or plugged? If you have the hose you should not have much of an air lock. The bypass hose is to keep the coolant moving in a loop while the thermostat is shut. The idea is to eliminate hot spots.

5. In answer to number 8: It is not likely that the water pump is bad. See above for easy check.

The thing that keeps bothering me is the spewing cold coolant. This is a problem. Check the radiator cap. I hope you don't have a blown head gasket.

[CSX 4027]

I never had any luck with anything less than the stant 19-21 lb racing cap. In my opinion 14 is way too low and causing the spillover. The racing cap raises the boiling point. Also, Texas? Antifreeze? I would use only distilled water and rust inhibitor. It is a fact that the car runs cooler on plain water.

[Excaliber]

Like Brent said,,,,,

you got to make SURE there is no air in the system. On my ERA I was SURE,,,,,,, and I was mistaken!!! There WAS air and I had to jack up the car on one side and bleed the top of the radiator which was LOWER than my fill tank. A "bubble" was trapped in the top of the radiator and all the flushing in the world didn't get that air out! NOT till I jacked it up and opened a pet cock valve at the top corner of the radiator!!!

[Clois Harlan]

Just a thought here, are you sure your oil lines are run correctly? What is your oil temp?

I fought these demons once and if you will barely loosen your temp gauge on your intake manifold and allow the air to burp out while your car is running this will almost asuredly purge all the air out of your system. Naturally, once water starts to ooze out of your temp gauge fitting tighten everything back up.

Good luck.

Clois

[RICK LAKE]

Steve Meltzer Steve I will take a shot. Thermostat is first put it in a can of boiling water and make sure it opens all the way. Is it A high Flow or heavy duty one?? I would go to pep boys and geta thermostat that is 63-64mm. Look at the opens where the water comes through The one the book calls for is small, Look for Part number 0-33342-06978, the outlet side is 1/4 inch larger, more flow. Put and 1/8" drill hole in the top to let the air out of the system. I had the intake off at this time and port matched it to the gaskets, everybody does the intake runner but for gets the coolant passages. This will give better flow and grind off the flashing casts. You may have to go to an aluminium raditor for better cooling. Run the car and put a floor fan in front on high speed and see if it over heats. Put A 180 thermostat in the car also. With it running check the flow. If it still over heats is it possible that the head gasket was put on backwards??. What coolant are you running in the car?? water wetter could help. Do your rad hoses have wire in them to stop a collapes?? I would think you have no air in the system but run the car to operating temp and shut it off, jack the front end up 11/2foot and let it sit over night or go to a garage with a suction coolant kit that sucks the air from the system. Start there Steve and let us know what happens?? Good luck If you want to talk 732-254-3536 after 8:00pm est Rick Lake

[Bruce Edwards]

Have you called the builder to see if he had a problem when he test ran it? I am wondering about head gaskets but I do not remember at this moment if the FE uses a only fits one way gasket. I do know if some are installed wrong the water flows out of the front and the rear has no flow.
If the builder did not have a problem then it has to be something going on since then.
I can not see how it would be a lower hose at idle. Not enough flow at low speed to cause the hose to close.
It really sounds to me like a water flow problem.

[steve meltzer]

I've got a bunch of work this AM (I hate how that interferes with my life!), so will have to reply later today. But a few quick things here.

1) Southern said the engine ran fine on the stand. (no, not the witness stand)
2) The oil heats up appropriately (cold at first, and slow steay rise to about 70C, as I recall...tryin' to watch the water temp gauge and traffic). It doesn't heat up really fast, like I would expect with a head gasket problem. Jeez, I hope that's not what it is!
3) The lower hose doesn't collapse and I think is steel reinforced (Thomas, you can verify that).
4) The comparitively low temps in the radiator hoses make me think that coolant isn't getting there. I think that there is a WP to intake bypass hose, but can't remember for sure.
5) No petcock at top of this radiator, just a hose that routes back to the surge tank. I filled it with water to purge the air while holding it up.
6) Gonna try another cap, but will the system be OK wiht 18-20#?
7) Any chance of an obstructed or defective, tho' new, surge tank?

thanx again, and when I get more time I'll post the list

steve

[PatBuckley]

Steve,

I would include checking the radiator out more closely...also, is the fan blowing the correct way?

Pat

[CSX 4027]

With a brand new system and new luminum radiator, you wont have any problem from the cap.

[David Kirkham]

This is Tom using David sign in.

Dear Steves,

I have seen many bad brand new caps. (The repo ones). I have never seen a bad Stant cap. I have also seen old overflow tanks with a bad seat for the cap that would not hold pressure.

Also, on an FE it is very easy to put the thermostat in backwards. If it is in backwards it will block the flow.

[MidOHasp]

I had some major problems with my 408W that sound somewhat similar to yours. Turned out my head bolts were not tight. 20-40 ft-lbs on some of them. Bad news. My water temp gauge in the car would get up to 120C regularly and actually pegged at 140 once. That's very bad. Once that happened, I started checking everything.

Just happened to see some oily "paste" under the valve covers, so tore them off and checked head torques. They were barely even on. Torqued everything up to spec and have never had the problem since.

When I was seeing 120C on the temp gauge, the radiator was ice cold. So I was thinking flow issues. I was right, but had no idea WHY I was having them. Thought bad pump, cavitation, lower rad hose collapsing, everything. Slowly eliminated every possible variable and it was STILL happening. Only by chance (oil change) did I notice the oil paste. First thought was blown head gasket, but turns out there was just not enough torque to keep the power in. I was blowing straight combustion/exhaust gasses into the cooling system. No wonder the manifold temp was reading so high and so quickly (immediate 50 degree spike if I breathed on the gas), the radiator was cold, and I was losing a gallon of coolant through the cap when I went out.

I put a 22 pound cap on, still lost coolant. Put a 26 pound cap on and blew the surge tank clean off the gooseneck (held on with a piece of hose and 2 clamps). I thought there was a blockage causing the lack of flow and insane pressure. I was just blowing smoke in there the whole time.

May be worth checking into... Our engine ran fine on the dyno, 13 pulls. But once it cooled off, it needed retorqued. The guy who dyno'd it said I'd be fine without. He was wrong. Dead wrong.

Check your head bolt torques. Could be it...? Maybe not.

JP