Demon or Holley Carb?

[PJS50]

Howdy all,
I wanted to get some opinions about the 2 different brands of carbs, even thought I know they are a lot alike in a lot of ways...
I am looking to get rid of the Holley 850 CFM that I have on the car now and getting a more "correct" carb for my setup.. I currently have a vacuum secondary, single pump, electric choked model and I was thinking of going to a Holley HP series 850 CFM to get some better airfow (I have some aircleaner/airhorn height issues on the 460 that is in the car and I believe that it is causing me to experience some off-idle throttle lag because of poor airflow, among other things).
I am very familiar with tuning a Holley, and people that I have talked to say that if I like Holley tunability, then I REALLY will like the Demon carbs...
Realistically, the major difference between the Holley HP and the "Mighty Demon" series carbs seem to be in the jetting department.. The Holley has fixed sized/replaceable jets and the Demon's metering body basically makes this carb have "adjustable jets".
First off, is my quick 2 cent synopsis of the 2 brands correct?
Second, the 2 carbs look to be about the same height/size. I assume there will be no "fit" issues? I can't afford a taller carb...
Third, are these Demon carbs as good as some people say?
Thanks for the opinions....
Pat

[Hotfingrs]

Give Don a call and talk about what you want...also read the information on his website about tuning the Demon....Don also is a member here and posts every once in a while when he has time. I just got my new Demon from him a couple of days ago....

http://www.4secondsflat.com/

[SCOBRAC]

They are the same. Barry Grant builds a beautiful carb. But Holley would be more original. They tune the same, same design with the exception of a new idle circut adjustment for long duration cams called Idle-Eze.

http://www.barrygrant.com/demon/defa...id=IdleEZSolve

[PJS50]

Thanks for the info guys.
Both sites have been very helpful...
After visiting them and getting involved in a couple other web-chats about advancing my intital timing, I think I am going to give a Mighty Demon a try this winter when my girl is in hibernation.
I really do normally consider myself to be a Holley Man, but I have heard decent reviews about the Demons from people that know their
and I value their opinions....
I know it won't look as "original" but better performance is more important to me at this time...
Besides, under the bonnet originality doesn't matter until after you have BEATEN you oponent, when everybody wants to see what you are running under their right?

[Big-Foot]

FWIW - I tend to stick with Holley. Their quality control is very high (I believe higher than BG is now) and their products are well supported by both them as well as the aftermarket.

With only one exception (in hundreds of car/carb combinations I have built, supported) have I ever had to re-work or adjust the air bleeds to the emulsion tubes. Just because it can be adjusted does not mean that it should be.
I can't tell you how many times I have had to re-baseline a carb because someone got in well over their heads trying to make their car faster or more responsive, when the problem was never in the carbureator to begine with.

A well tuned vacuum secondary Holley will outperform a double pumper on the street any day. The Vac secondary carb can be far more responsive than people give it credit for.

More air and More fuel does not a faster car make. You have to have the rest of the package (gears, cam, heads, exhaust, ignition) in balance or you are just slowing down rather than going faster.

[bigmike]

I have been running a Holley, but have had more than a little grief with the tuning. The resident expert can't get it to run correctly, either; thinks there may be any internal casting problem with the Holley body. A friend who is running a 460 in his cobra swears by his mighty demon, so this winter I, too, will be installing a mighty demon.
BigMike

[Big-Foot]

Bigmike - What is the problem?

If your Holley or BG has ever gotten any water (even from condensation), the holes in the emulsion tubes that are inside the metering blocks can get plugged with corrosion. When this happens you have no end of trouble. You can many times dissolve the corrosion by soaking the metering blocks in a pan of lacquer thinner for a couple of days while removing every 6 hours or so to blow the passages clean with compressed air and then putting them back in the pan.

BG carbs bring nothing more to the table than Holley's do other than venturi sleeves and replaceable air-bleeds (which literally never need replacing).

[NROTOXIN]

Holley's new 'Ultra' HP Series have Billet aluminum metering blocks and base, all removable jets (High speed air bleed, idle bleed, idle feed restrictor, , pvcr, and emulsion) secondary throttle adj and BIG float bowl level site windows.

curtis

[Jack21]

Thought I'd put my $ .02 in FWIW.

I'm an old Holley man also, going back to my first one one a '57 312 motor.

Had been eyeballing these BG's for several years. In '01, there was a series of writeups on big block engine buildups. They pulled all the Holleys off, and used BG's instead!

BG's look similar, and use Holley service parts, but internally, the BG is a lot more sophisticated.

Long story short, I replaced the Holley (#4778, 700 CFM DP) with the BG Speed Demon (650 CFM DP), and the difference, out-of-the-box was astounding! Sounded like a different engine.

If you're running an cam with more than 220* duration, the BG will make it run better.

Air cleaners: The only air filter that I've found to fit in a Cobra, and provide decent airflow is the K&N with the top as well as side filter elements. The 11" just fits inside the hood scoop, and clears the top by about 3/4".

[PJS50]

Well,
I lot of these discussion points are like debating about religion... Nobody is right for EVERY occasion...
While I am not saying that Holley is all of a sudden P.O.S. carbs, I just thought I'd give the Mighty Demon a try on my 460. I need a different carb either way... The one that's on there now just aint cutting it...
It does seem kinda funny that NOW all of a sudden Holley is actually mimicking the Demon carbs features (billet metering block & bases, etc...).
Also, did holley drop the 850 CFM HP from that series? I was on the Holley wesite yesterday and I couldn't find an 850 HP, or any 850 CFM carb without the airhorn...? Did I just miss it? The air horn is one of the reasons that I am ditching my current Holley in the first place...

[Big-Foot]

Originally posted by PJS50


Well,
I lot of these discussion points are like debating about religion... Nobody is right for EVERY occasion...
While I am not saying that Holley is all of a sudden P.O.S. carbs, I just thought I'd give the Mighty Demon a try on my 460. I need a different carb either way... The one that's on there now just aint cutting it...
It does seem kinda funny that NOW all of a sudden Holley is actually mimicking the Demon carbs features (billet metering block & bases, etc...).
Also, did holley drop the 850 CFM HP from that series? I was on the Holley wesite yesterday and I couldn't find an 850 HP, or any 850 CFM carb without the airhorn...? Did I just miss it? The air horn is one of the reasons that I am ditching my current Holley in the first place...

It is true that there are multiple ways of approaching the issue of efficient fuel metering systems. In regard to carburetion, the king of efficiency is, in my mind, Weber. But try and fine tune an IDF / IDA someday and you will know why sometimes "Good enough" is just right..

Holley mimicking Demon?
Actually - it is the other way around. BG is building their carbs under a patent license from Holley. BG was, for many years, one of the best places to go to purchase his "Blueprinted" Holley carbs - I know, I have installed many dozen of them and have spoken with the man himself on multiple occassions.
Billet throttle bodies and metering blocks - Holley did have Billet metering blocks on the market for their 4500 series carbs until they found they could produce the carbs far cheaper by using castings. Remember the 4500 (Dominator) series used to cost over 1 grand just to get into the 1050 carb. That price is now about 1/2 of that (Dealer cost).
Now that BG has proven that the market will once again bear the expense involved to get "Bling-bling" (anodized / billet anything) Holley has wisely decided to re-enter the market. This was "smart" business on the part of Holley because they let BG spend his money to test the waters..

I still have all the faith in the world in Barry Grant. He understands the world of carburetion better than anyone alive today. However, few of the BG carbs you buy today have ever been through his facility and manybe none of them have been in his own hands. They are currently dealing with QC issues (in my humble opinion) and BG needs to step up and deal with them.
The rest of the problem is in support. The adjustability in the newer breed BG carbs is akin to the Weber racing carbs. They are base-lined just fine, but it is exceedingly easy to get well off-course and have a carb that causes you troubles that are almost insurmountable without returning back to the documented baseline and starting over...

I apologize for the length of this msg..

[webebob]

Demon stuck it up Holleys ass and broke it off.
Demon took a bunch of aggravating bugs out of the holley and the market said "thank you!".
Kind of what the Jap cars did to American cars in the 80's. Now Holley is scrambling to improve their carbs to get their market share back. Good luck!
Demon keeps innovating. Holley keeps following.

Either can be made to run. It is a question of how much hair you want to pull.

My 2cents

[PJS50]

I hear what you are saying Randy, but I am personally unaware of any QC issues with the Demons... Actually, I was going to procure one of the "pre tuned" Mighty Demons through Don Gould (sp) at that FBO racing/4 Seconds Flat website and pay him the $25 to give it an initial "once over" as some others on this board have done....
Again, I personally consider myself a "Holley Man" still, it just seems that a Mighty Demon will better suit my needs for THIS car anyway...
BTW, a 850CFM "Mighty" sells for @$499, the closest Holley (830CFM)was about $160 more and DIDN'T feature all the "billet" goodies... Who is winning the $$$ battle here?

[Big-Foot]

webebob - You kiss your Momma with that mouth?

FWIW - Every BG carb you buy just makes Holley richer too. That's what licensing of patented technology does for you. Even though BG has changed the size and look of the float bowels, they still have the exact same float mechanisms, adjustment, etc. Literally all the gaskets for the Demon series carbs can be purchased from Holley. You can even mix and match many parts from both manufacturers. If you look closely enough at the Billet components at Holley, you may see that they could have been manufactured by BG for Holley. I don't know that this is the case, but I wouldn't be surprized.

PJS50 - BG makes a fine product - don't get me wrong here. Their have been cases of QC issues in regard to scrap from machining processes inside the carbs. If things don't seem right - a quick disassembly and cleaning may be in order.

The 830 Holley you are talking about is the Keith Dorton carb - yes it's pricey, but it is the very same carb that is used on virtually all NASCAR Nextel Cup engines.

I do not work for Holley or any of it's related companies. I'm just a believer in their product lines.

Here is the run-down on their carbs from 830-870 CFM in the 4150 variety:


http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...C/0-4781C.html
Part #: 0-4781C
850 CFM Four Barrel
Features
Model 4150 w/ center hung floats
Unique shiny/chromate dip finish
Double pump
Mechanical secondaries
Manual choke
Power valve blow-out protection
Four-corner idle system
100% wet-flow tested and calibrated


http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...C/0-80785.html
Part #: 0-80785
830 CFM Four Barrel

Features
Intended for circle track racing
Special Keith Dorton calibration for gasoline
Model 4150 HP with mechanical progressive linkage
Center hung float bowls with dual 30cc accelerator pumps
Screw-in air bleeds
Four-corner idle system
Power valve blow-out protection
Non-stick reusable gaskets
Stainless steel throttle plates w/ button head screws
100% wet-flow tested and calibrated


http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...C/0-80870.html
Part #: 0-80870
870 CFM Four Barrel
Features
Model 4150 w/ center hung floats
Electric choke
Quick-change vacuum secondary
Ford A/T kickdown
Power valve blow-out protection
4 Vacuum ports (PCV, power brake, spark, accessories)
Lifetime limited warranty
100% wet-flow tested and street calibrated

[RedCSX1]

Well I have a Mighty Demon and have run it on the Dyno only. So far its been great. 500 HP for my 427 which is not stroked and the carb out of the box work great. Mine is a 850 CFM with down leg boosters.

I have had Holleys in the past and have alway had to screw with them. the last was a 750 cfm that I eventually had blue printed by JET Performance.
Morgan

[cuda66273]

Dear Mr. Big Foot,

Please be more cautious in your statements regarding the source of parts and components and whom makes what.

Your statement is far from fact and very misleading and derogatory to the Demon Brand Name and patents owned by Barry Grant Inc.

I quote from Mr. Doug Schieffer, Head of Technical Services, Barry Grant Inc.

"Where the hell did that come from?

Yes, some parts can interchange, and we both even buy from some of the same vendors. BUT, I can assure you that we don't sell them anything, nor do we buy anything from them.

Doug"

...along with some other comments not as nice.

The fact is just because a carb has dual modular float bowls does not make it a Holley just as me standing in a garage does not make me a car.

Please edit your post accordingly

[Big-Foot]

Dear Mr. cuda66273,

You said:
"Please be more cautious in your statements regarding the source of parts and components and whom makes what."

and then you said:
"Yes, some parts can interchange, and we both even buy from some of the same vendors. BUT, I can assure you that we don't sell them anything, nor do we buy anything from them."

It sort of looks like (to me) that both companies buy parts from the same vendors.

All companies can and do (from time to time) experience Quality Control issues - no company or person is perfect. I have said nothing derogatory about BG or his products or company. On the contrary - I have said many NICE things about the company and products.

You said, in another post;
"I tune Demon carbs every day all day."

If this is true, then you must know that not all carbs will work perfectly right out of the box. I will say that Holley, by virtue of having been in business for over 50 years, has sold far more carburetors than has BG. They have the process down pat.

Maybe Holley doesn't buy parts from BG. (Previous post edited out of respect to BG himself as I don't want to convey information I don't have backed up) But your friend Doug seems to think that both companies buy parts from the same suppliers. I would too, if I were manufacturing a product that was so closely designed to another product that I could avail myself of the plethora of parts and components already available.

What other carbs have "dual modular float bowls" ?? I know of exactley - well - none! I wonder why that is?

Maybe BG no longer buys parts or carbs from Holley, but I know they have. I also know that I have, in my shop right now, two Holley 4150 carbs that have BG logos on them.
I have had dozens of carbs, exactly like them, through my shop over the last number of years. Same goes for Bo Laws, Chuck Nuytten, Nickerson, Carb Shop, Braswell and even my own alcohol prepped carbs that used my own cast and machined metering blocks - sold under the name of RPMS (Race Proven Metering Systems). I've nothing derogatory to say about any of these companies or hundreds more like them that ALL work with carbs of literally identical technology as the original Holley carb...

Now - lets go back to tuning and talking cars. If anyone has a problem with their Holley or BG Carbs, I am sure that there are a number of us here that would be willing to try to help..

BTW - You guys that freak over the sweet looking anodizing on some of these carbs, you should see some of the new Billet pieces offered by old friend Bo Laws at BLP!

http://www.blp.com/processtype.asp?M...&ProcessType=5

[PJS50]

Neat site Randy.. But that one carb that pops up on the opening page looks like a PIMP carb.... ( NO-offense intended by that statement, pimps need carbs too!).....
Like I said before, I own 3 differen Holleys currently... Just going to give the Mighty Demon a try on this car.... If it sucks, I'll put the Holley back on after I cut off the air horn....
Thanks guys....

[cuda66273]

"You said, in another post;
"I tune Demon carbs every day all day."

If this is true, then you must know that not all carbs will work perfectly right out of the box."

I don’t believe ANY carb works perfectly right out of the box, the purchaser needs to understand the difference between “Tuning" a carb and having to “Repair” or "Modify" it before it can be used. Yes we do tune Demon’s everyday, we disassemble each and every carb before it leaves our shop to be sure that everything is correct and we baseline set them as close as possible to each specific application. We want the car to fire off and run for every customer and to minimize tuning.

As you know nobody can tune a carb on a bench and expect it to be perfect, if we could do that we’d be very wealthy men.


"But your friend Doug seems to think that both companies buy parts from the same suppliers. I would too, if I were manufacturing a product that was so closely designed to another product that I could avail myself of the plethora of parts and components already available."

Correct just as Crane, Comp, Isky and everyone else buys their blank cams from virtually the same 2 American suppliers, gaskets, power valves and jets are the purchased by all carburetor companies from the same specialty vendors.

"What other carbs have "dual modular float bowls" ?? I know of exactly - well - none! I wonder why that is?"

Pro Form Chinese Plagiarized junk, Carb Shop, Brazwel, etc., these Guy’s will all tell you that they only use the Holley carb castings and everything else is there own design, in fact some of them get nasty if you infer that their Holley carb is actually a Holley carb.


"Maybe BG no longer buys parts or carbs from Holley, but I know they have. I also know that I have, in my shop right now, two Holley 4150 carbs that have BG logos on them."

That is a factual statement, in the early years BG started out reworking Holley Carbs, but since the inception of the Demon and following the Law suit by Holley (which Holley lost) BG has developed their own Main Body’s, Base Plates, Metering blocks and redesigned the old Holley “style” modular carb to a much more refined product using modern casting technology and computer aided design.

"BTW - You guys that freak over the sweet looking anodizing on some of these carbs, you should see some of the new Billet pieces offered by old friend Bo Laws at BLP!"

Those pieces look suspiciously like the Pro Form Chinese Stuff?
If they really make your Holley work better than a BG Carb, which I doubt knowing Chinese quality control, the design is plagiarized and should not be allowed in this country along with the multitude of other designs they have stolen and market here under American type names like Eagle, Cat, Scat the list is endless. But that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it under the constitution...LOL

But if you want color? Look here:
http://www.barrygrant.com/demon/default.aspx?page=21c

You can buy and use whatever you want; I personally won’t put any Chinese parts on or in my American Muscle car. The designs are stolen, the quality is seldom there, they use slave labor and then take my hard earned dollars to build a Military and point their guns at us, not my money, no thanks.

I avoid anything made in China like the plague, I realize that these days it’s almost impossible but I try my very best to not give them any of my hard earned money, something’s just can’t be avoided like the Microsoft key board I’m typing on, but I try and if there’s an alternative I’ll take it.

Here’s some interesting links on Barry Grant as a person and his products:

http://www.barrygrant.com/pages/fuel_for_thought.aspx

http://www.barrygrant.com/pages/aboutus.aspx


As Jerry Springer would say…. “And In Closing”

There’s very few good carb tuners left out there, you and I and a few others are a rare breed, we’re left overs of another generation and another time zone. We understand where technology has taken us and where it’s going, the carburetor is doomed it’s just a matter of time before the lack of sales and popularity make it a Dinosaur. If we’re still around we’ll probably have to be retrained, I don’t expect to be concerned about a re-training program I doubt I’ll live to see it.

Holley is reducing it’s services as their sales are less than optimum, it is my understanding that they have closed the fuel pump technical and service departments, I was told by a customer you can no longer get a pump rebuilt or buy parts for them. I don't know I haven't called them myself, maybe you could enlighten us on this and cearify the rumor?

Is it Barry Grant that’s eating away at their sales…probably some, but IMO it’s a combination of competition, slowing demand, lack of R&D on new products and lack luster customer support that’s really hurting them.

BG sales are way up every year, if I were going to invest my retirement money in a carb company I guarantee you it wouldn’t be in Holley.

Keep up the good work my freind...long live Muscle cars and the 4 Barrel Carb...of any name plate!

[cuda66273]

Pimp Carb....now that's funny LMAO

I actually saw a Panther Pink Challenger 6 Pack car at a show with the Holley Float bowls painted pink....reminded me of the Playboy Club Bunny Girls in Chicago with their little pink tails...LOL

Boy now I'm dating myself.