Distributor gear solution idea

[olddog]

We all know that high volume, high pressure oil pumps put more load on the cam and distributor gears. It seems to me Ford engines have more problems, but put a big enough oil pump in it and any engine that drives the pump with the distributor will have gear failures.

So hear is my thought. Go to an external belt driven oil pump. Since we have the oil filter and coolers external anyway the plumbing is pretty much there.

Bear with me, as I am typing this off the top of my head without a lot of thought or experiance. It would seem you could use the oil pump for a dry sump system (off the shelf item) only plumb it out of the oil pan. Obviously a complete dry sump system is better, but there is not a lot of room, and they are costly.

Anyway that would be one way to make the distributor gear last forever.

Bad, dumb, interesting, or good idea? Let the opinions roll!

[mylesdw]

I'm guessing that the pressure section of a dry sump pump won't make much of a lift pump to pick oil up from a sump, they are designed to have the input oil higher than the pump inlet. What about a dry sump pump with one scavenge stage and plumb the scavenge directly to the pressure stage; maybe with a small reservoir or suitable pressure regulation?

[olddog]

Originally Posted by mylesdw

I'm guessing that the pressure section of a dry sump pump won't make much of a lift pump to pick oil up from a sump, they are designed to have the input oil higher than the pump inlet. What about a dry sump pump with one scavenge stage and plumb the scavenge directly to the pressure stage; maybe with a small reservoir or suitable pressure regulation?

That is exactly what I was thinking, along with a question as to if the oil filter could be between the scavage and pressure section. That would keep the filter at the lower pressure, if it didn't hurt flow.

[Jamo]

Moved to the appropriate forum...

[mylesdw]

How about using the standard in-sump pump as the scavenge pump; all it has to do is pick oil up from the sump and push it through the filter; it could run a very weak pressure relief spring since it only has to overcome the filter. Downstream of the filter you feed straight into the pressure section of your dry sump pump (no scavenge needed).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by mylesdw

What about a dry sump pump with one scavenge stage and plumb the scavenge directly to the pressure stage; maybe with a small reservoir or suitable pressure regulation?

I'm guessing you'll then be pumping a mixture of oil, blow by gases, and air to the bearings.

[mylesdw]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I'm guessing you'll then be pumping a mixture of oil, blow by gases, and air to the bearings.

Only if the pick-up in the sump became uncovered which should not be the case since we are using the sump as the main oil reservoir.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I'm guessing you'll then be pumping a mixture of oil, blow by gases, and air to the bearings.

The oil coming out of the oil pan sump would be exactly the same as what the internal pump is pumping now. The only differance would be that the oil is being pumped by an externally mounted and belt driven pump. The pump should not add air to the oil.

Actually there may be available an external pump designed for this service, although I never heard of one.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by mylesdw

How about using the standard in-sump pump as the scavenge pump; all it has to do is pick oil up from the sump and push it through the filter; it could run a very weak pressure relief spring since it only has to overcome the filter. Downstream of the filter you feed straight into the pressure section of your dry sump pump (no scavenge needed).

A reasonable thought, but the purpose is to get the oil pump load off of the distributor, however reducing its load may be good enough.

In my industrial work with pumps, both pressure and flow impact the load on the pump. To do this, you would likely want lots of volume available, but low pressure capability. A gear pump would not be the best type of pump. That's why I like the dry sump pump, as it is off the shelf.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by olddog

Actually there may be available an external pump designed for this service, although I never heard of one.

they do make them.

[Jamo]

Seems like if you're going to go through all of this trouble with plumbing, etc., you might as well (as Old dog noted at the beginning) go with a dry sump. Pat Buckley set up a nice system in his Kirkham (in which he ran a solid roller BTW) and it was a nice setup since it allowed for a good integrated breathing system as well.

[Sizzler]

Trouble with belt drives, external pump or dry sump, is they're driven by BELTS. If you go that route, I'd recommend some sort of Accusump-type backup plan.

Lehman made pumps like you're looking for. Here's an example that is driven off the front of the cam, mounts to the timing cover (for an sbc), no belts...

one pump pulls oil from the pan and the others step up the pressure in stages

You'd need to go with an electric, remote water pump...

[Jac Mac]

BME (Bud Moore Eng) used an in pan dry sump pump that was driven by a single row roller chain sandwiched between original timing chain & front main, any of the current single stage pumps from Peterson etc could be mounted in similar fashion with a bit of work for a tidy 'stock appearance'.
By the same reasoning you could make a nice billet mount to attach the single stage belt drive pump directly to the oil filter boss of an FE with integral filter & oil cooler attachment points - belt would fit behind damper & you require an electric fuel pump.

Jac Mac

[RACER X #99]

Looke here for single stage external pumps from Stock car products. Pretty sure Gordon Levy runs an external pump on his Cobra and also Scott in AZ.

http://pumps.scpdrysumps.com/


RD

[Ken Oikawa]

Originally Posted by Jac Mac

BME (Bud Moore Eng) used an in pan dry sump pump that was driven by a single row roller chain sandwiched between original timing chain & front main, any of the current single stage pumps from Peterson etc could be mounted in similar fashion with a bit of work for a tidy 'stock appearance'.
By the same reasoning you could make a nice billet mount to attach the single stage belt drive pump directly to the oil filter boss of an FE with integral filter & oil cooler attachment points - belt would fit behind damper & you require an electric fuel pump.

Jac Mac

Jac does it look like this...

[Jac Mac]

Ken, The one I have info on was entirely inside the pan with only hose fittings to outside- Might have the article around still in the archives somewhere, but dont count on it! Is that a chain drive or a spur gear drive in the pic you have shown?

Jac Mac

[Ken Oikawa]

Originally Posted by Jac Mac

Ken, The one I have info on was entirely inside the pan with only hose fittings to outside- Might have the article around still in the archives somewhere, but dont count on it! Is that a chain drive or a spur gear drive in the pic you have shown?

Jac Mac

I don't know, could be either. Thought you might be able to help.

[Jac Mac]

Will have a look tonite & PM you if I find anything. Cheers
Jac Mac