FMS 427 Sroked Small Block Thoughts

[madmaxx]

What do you guys think? It has a meaty cam @ 576 / .600 lift with a rocker arm ratio of 1.65. They are cramming the air into those cylinders.

Retail is $8800, what I see to finish is:
1) MSD distributor $219 plus $42 coil + $15 for hold down = $276
2) Edelbrock Intake manifold $299.95 + $20.00 gaskets = $320.00
3) Alternator $100.00
4) Pulley $200 plus bracket for alternator $100 = $300
5) PCV valve $5 plus throttle plate = $50.00
6) Fuel log for carb and fuel line from fuel pump = $100
7) Carburator = $370.00
8) starter $100 hardware to mount $15.00 = $115.00
9) Fuel pump = $40.00

Total cost before labor to finish engine assembly = $8800 + $1617 = $10,471 Throw in $500 for labor and you are at $10,971.

[madmaxx]

For comparison:
Hilbanks price for Roush 427 sr/tw is $14,205 (dynoed with 2 year warranty)
Keith Craft 427 $11, 795 (dynoed with 2 year warranty)

[blykins]

That's a baby cam.

It's the price to finish that will get you. A $300 carb isn't the best choice for a hipo 427ci SBF.

Some of your other prices are on the very low side too.

For a comparison, I just did a 427 with AFR 205cc heads, a Dart Sportsman block, Comp solid roller, Super Victor, Quick Fuel carb, MSD Pro-Billet distributor, Comp gold rocker arms, Moroso pan, etc, etc. It came up to be just under $11500 with a new 100A alternator, CVR gear drive starter, etc. All brand new parts, all top notch stuff. That price was assembled and dyno'd.

[blykins]

BTW, if you're in the market and you'd like to see a list of the parts that went into this engine, just let me know. A custom built engine will have a better selection of parts than an assembly line engine. I also will provide a build sheet with all clearances, specs, etc., along with a CD complete with build pictures and dyno videos.

[madmaxx]

Bingo!!! Now we are see value added items over the intial purchase price that you will have a hard time getting from Ford I would imagine. Build sheets, specs etc. That is worth $$

Originally Posted by blykins

BTW, if you're in the market and you'd like to see a list of the parts that went into this engine, just let me know. A custom built engine will have a better selection of parts than an assembly line engine. I also will provide a build sheet with all clearances, specs, etc., along with a CD complete with build pictures and dyno videos.

[Cashburn]

Apples to apples if you want to compare $ to $. Need to know where you are buying those $100 powermaster alternators and starters from... but that's a start ... er.

[Cashburn]

No flywheel on Ford...

[madmaxx]

I got all the prices from summit racing catalog except powermaster alternator and starter. Summit Powermaster alternator is $129 for natural and $139 for polished and starter is for Powermaster $146.95. I was off $60.00 on those two. Shipping and handeling is $9.95 and you get some free stickers and ball cap sometimes LOL!!!

Trust me I have no idea why anyone builds and sells performance engines the margins are razor thin. It must be true passion for what they do.

[blykins]

It is a passion for me....I really enjoy it.

I hope you weren't being sarcastic when you were talking about the value added money with the clearance/spec sheets, etc.

It really does mean a lot since most mass rebuilders don't take time to actually measure bearing clearances with mics/bore mics, mix/match bearings if they have to, double check all the machinist's work, etc. You also have to realize that a lot of the times they don't advertise EXACTLY what parts are going into the engine, just so they can shop different manufacturers and get the best deal at the time.

My engines also come with RAM flywheels, good harmonic balancers, internally balanced, etc, etc. ARP fasteners are used everywhere internally, down to the cam thrust plate bolts, oil pump bolts, etc. You won't get that from Ford.

[madmaxx]

Hell no I was NOT BEING SARCASTIC!!!!!!!!! Until you try to figure out someone elses stuff you dont appreciate the information you provided. I have a hard enough time replacing a slave cylinder no less engine gaskets and components when needed.

In the end I dont see the value with the FMS427, The response I experience when dealing with Ford and GM concerning a problem is usually "it is characteristic" whenever you approach them with an issue why would it be any different on a crate engine. You are not even getting a complete engine, convienant way to leave wiggle room when an issue does arise. The blame game starts. I would only go 100% turnkey from one supplier.

Originally Posted by blykins

It is a passion for me....I really enjoy it.

I hope you weren't being sarcastic when you were talking about the value added money with the clearance/spec sheets, etc.

It really does mean a lot since most mass rebuilders don't take time to actually measure bearing clearances with mics/bore mics, mix/match bearings if they have to, double check all the machinist's work, etc. You also have to realize that a lot of the times they don't advertise EXACTLY what parts are going into the engine, just so they can shop different manufacturers and get the best deal at the time.

My engines also come with RAM flywheels, good harmonic balancers, internally balanced, etc, etc. ARP fasteners are used everywhere internally, down to the cam thrust plate bolts, oil pump bolts, etc. You won't get that from Ford.

[blykins]

I appreciate your thoughts and insight.

Unfortunately some customers only look at the $$$ figures and don't see the value added items.

Needless to say, I think one of my "value added items" is that I always answer my cell phone....even on the weekends.

I would imagine that FRPP offers a complete engine minus because it leaves more room to wiggle out of liability. If 500 miles down the road the Printoseal intake gasket that the customer installed blows the silicone and lets antifreeze go everywhere in your pretty new engine, then FRPP is going to say, "Tough luck, you installed the intake."

You really have to watch about engine builder warranties as well. They won't pay out for any old thing because it's usually a gray area when something fails. For instance, don't expect an engine builder to warranty an engine when the customer breaks in a fresh one with a flat tappet cam and now for some reason the valve lash keeps increasing....

[Mark Brye]

While I agree that a reputable engine builder may take more care in building a high performance engine, I am not sure that I agree with the liability wiggle room.

Ford is a big company and spends lots of money on R&D and Testing because they do not want to be liable. I think this is why ford tests their components in Durability tests, running their crate motors in a test cell for 50 hours at full load and RPM. Then tears down the engine and has their engine specialists look at each component for wear and fatigue. Then they run another unit until catastrophic failure and tear it down and do a root cause failure analysis on the engine. At that point either the engine meets its intended usage or they go back to the drawing board. Not sure how many engine builders out there have the financial ability to do this.

Ford may shop around for best prices for piece parts but I doubt they just swap in part changes at will without delta testing to prove the engine still meets requirements.

[blykins]

You may have a point about R&D, but I can assure you that once the R&D is done, the guys slapping these things together don't take hours and hours to mock-up, check clearances, spend more hours fine tuning, then hours assembling. They produce as many as they can, as fast as they can. They spend the dough to figure out what parts work well together and that's where it stops. I'll spend half a day to a day doing mock-ups....figuring out where I want the cam timing, degreeing the cam, checking main/rod clearances, checking piston/bore clearances, putting the pistons on the rods then checking rod/rod clearances, checking piston/valve clearances, etc, etc.

I can guarantee you that these guys get a batch of crankshafts in and just throw a set of standard bearings in there and roll with it. Blocks are not honed to fit pistons. Cams are not degreed. They don't care that sometimes the Scat rods and crank come in at two opposite ends of the tolerance scale and if you use a standard rod bearing, you get .003" rod bearing clearance....or that some of the pistons vary by .0005" on diameter and instead of running a .004" minimum clearance, they're now at maybe .0035" or so. Do they actually take time to file and gap all the rings? I'd bet that the rings are pre-fit and that they don't even double check them.

Not every engine is ran in for 50 hours in a test cell is what I'm getting at. Maybe one of them is, but from then on, it's wham-bam, thank-ya-mam.

You may say that I'm too picky and I'm splitting hairs, but I prefer to be that way....that's what they call a custom engine.

As far as the small shop engine builders, I doubt any of them (myself included) don't have access to a dyno. We all know what combos work and work well and once that combination of parts is found, it's not hard to duplicate it.

[vector1]

i wouldn't hesitate to buy the fms products, i just don't like the heavy aftermarket blocks. definitely built for stout.