Solid roller failed again

[PatBuckley]

Mine had 13000 on it (ERA535) when I sold the car and the new owner put even more miles on it without a single problem.

My extensive "research" proves that a well set up roller cam will last a long time.

[blykins]

Pat, you're absolutely correct. It all comes down to the lobe, the springs, and the lifters.

[Excaliber]

Thats a valid point Pat, I think much of it depends on HOW those miles were accumulated, as I'm sure you understand the principle. Low rpm is the solid roller killer, inadequate oil supply and valve adjustment as well. The same setup might give one guy 10,000 miles of "around town" low rpm duty and the next guy could get 50,000 if he's on the freeway at speed with a decent constant rpm.

MY engine, solid roller, had a bunch of miles on it before I got the car, I don't know what the previous owners driving habits were. I guess the new solid rollers address the oiling problem in a much better way now.

[btec]

If it were me, I would at least pull the pan and start checking bearings. The carnage from both cam failures will get into the oil sytem and that might be part of the problem. The motor should come appart, cleaned and checked.

[Ant]

I have a flat tappet camshaft running composite Smith Machine custom made lifters in my Ford windsor engine, spring pressure is below 440Ibs open.
I would be a bit disappointed if this engine only made 8000 miles on this camshaft as most of the mileage will be cruising at highway speed, with good lubrication oil high in zinc etc.

I guess it depends on how hard the race miles are as my engine might only do 2 - 3000 miles per year so it would take 5 years to do and then it may be prudent to strip it and do the valves springs etc. Running the 100 rockwell hard ceramic puck type lifter maybe a bit risky if you get too much valve clearance the bonuses of this lifter are less risky camshaft run in and less friction.

Time will tell......!

[Ralphy]

Berm, have you ever used a file to check app. hardness?

[tin-man]

Originally Posted by FWB

sorry to be a bit off here but using the F-word in posts is a bit offensive to me. even if it is spelled wrong. maybe we can be a bit more adult and use appropriate language, some peoples posts are linked to their facebook page and there are children looking at them. a little consideration with language is necessary.

if certain words offend, c'est a vie, Nuff said. tin-man

[bermblaster41]

Excaliber..........You are correct on almost everything. Long periods of idle. Lots of stop lights. Idle speed way too low. My ignorance ...........That was the first time on the cam. The lash was set and checked per the cam card several times. The heads were built up after cnc port job with springs to match the cam. When the lifter failed it damaged 1 lobe slightly and 1 other lobe was scored a little. The cam builder was confident that it would be a simple fix at a fraction of the price of a new cam. Funny thing is the 2 lobes that were repaired were not damaged on this last failure. I plan on a complete tear down and dunk the block. I replaced the main and rod bearings including the oil pump on the first go around.





Thanks everyone on their input. When it is said and done my valvetrain will be all new and hoppefully BULLET PROOF. Berm

[FUNFER2]

We've all heard 50/50 on the mechanical rollers living on the street. With my new motor, I've went with Isky's EZ-Roll lifters, that have a solid bearing, not needles. They did go through a few different type's of material to get where they are today, supposedly,... with no issues. I also bought a cam core from "Howards" , which sells a lot to other company's. Isky will do the grinding. I also got their "Tool Room" springs and valvetrain hardware. I'm hoping that this kind of newer,..... technology solves the street issue.

You might check with them as I have, as see what they recommend.

Excaliber- "Another problem with getting enough oil to the lifter is how modern technology (engine building, windage trays and such) keeps the oil away from the crank. So your "splash" or "oil spray" from the crank to the camshaft lobe area is greatly reduced. Thereby starving the cam/lifters."

I guess I've never thought of the windage tray, crank scraper, causing this affect. Just how much has been studied about this poentional problem ?

Very good question !

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[Excaliber]

Some of the engine builders around here, like Brent for B2Motorsports, are better qualified to address that subject than myself. I would think it varies from motor to motor and how their individual oiling systems work; as well as any engine mod's done during the build. Like the clearance on the sides of the rods in relation to the crank.

Some guys might choose to go with a deep pan to get the oil away from the crank rather than a windage tray, same end result.

[FUNFER2]

Berm- click on this link, see what you think and then talk with Nolan.

http://www.iskycams.com/

[undy]

Solid roller on the street... in the past, today and tomorrow, a very slippery slope that typically ends in disaster.

[750hp]

Seems that the pressure-fed oiling designs on certain Morel, Isky, Crower, Comp solid rollers mean they are lasting well in street applications these days.

I removed my older style splash fed solid roller Comp lifters recently as a regular maintenance item and fitted some new style Comps. The old ones had done a few years of hard street miles and like Pat, I expect the new ones to give trouble free service.

[RICK LAKE]

Bermblaster41 The cams shaft was repaired by a machinist that made the surfaces harder on the damaged area. Higher rockwell rating. This is why no damage to these two lobes.
This subject have been beaten to death over the last couple of years. The issue is can you run a solid roller lifter camshaft on the street. Yes you can,BUT here are the problems. IMO if you are street driving, you want to run a tighter valve lash that looser one. Idling for long periods is a NO-NO. unless you have sprayer bars or pressurized lifters with pin holes to lube the roller wheel and bearings. All it take is a small piece of debrie to get between the roller wheel and the lobe of the camshaft and you have major failure in 2 minutes. Be there had this happen on a new motor. Windage trays canalso cause problems. They stop spray of oil in the bottom of the motor. The oil is not sucked up by crank rotation and less oil is hitting the camshaft and lobes. A fix for this is to run a .010" groove from the lifter bore down to the inside of the lifter area to drop or spray the lobe and lifter surface. This is an old solid lifter trick for extending the lift of solids.
Oil is the main problem with all motors today. IMO too thin and not enough grip to cool and lube parts. I am old school and run Lucas oil suppliments for the last 13 years. No motor failures from roadracing and autocross. An FE motor is not the same as a Windsor but both need te same thing to live long lifes. Good parts and good oil pressure and flow to all areas.
Is it possible that the lash is a little loose? The valve springs are a match for the camshaft profile but are they too much for the rpms you drive in?? If you have a little time could you give us the specs on the camshaft, rpm range YOU drive, valve spring #'s? The spec you are running on the valve spring bind would also be wanted.
Berm, the hardest question to answer is What are you looking for from this motor?? HP, Torque, Drivability, 7,800 rpm range. If you give these specs and have some FAITH, I see no reason we can't give you a strong motor for your car without breaking the bank. Rick L.

[Excaliber]

I THINK I may be getting a little more conservative with the passing of time, I guess...

There was a time when I couldn't get enough horse power. Like the first motor I had in my ERA. 12.5 to 1 compression, massive dual carbs, radical solid roller, 7,000 plus rpm, man that thing was a beast. I grew tired of it's ill street manners, rebuilt and made substantial changes, estimated drop in power of about 150 horse. Surprisingly, I don't miss it, in fact, it was the best thing I've done for myself in years! I built a good "lumpy idle", sounds mean, it IS mean, kind of motor, but it's nice on the street, runs pump gas instead of race gas. Due to traction concerns it still FEELS just as fast, even at the drag strip it's within a hundreth of a second AS fast as before. Yet my mpg has doubled! My stress level is way down when driving it, much more pleasent on the street.

No question, for the ultimate power and big rpm solid roller is an excellent choice. As for me, I actually find myself contemplating a hydraulic roller for my next build. All though I'm still dealing with the embarrasement issue of running a hydraulic cam of any kind, it just seems "less manly" to me for some reason. Maybe, I'll swallow my pride in time and go that route. Or, maybe I'll stick with a flat tappet. Now flat tappet is not for everyone either, like a solid roller, it has it's downside, carries some risk of early failure if not broken in and maintained properly, needs to be adjusted from time to time. Still, it's hard to beat the "manly" factor.

It will be interesting to see what I come up with when the time comes to re-build...

[madmaxx]

In the end it appears we will never know the open pressure of the springs. I am ignorant when it comes to cams, which is well ahead of most who think they know them, LOL. It appears to be a very aggressive street cam for a 408. Look at the new Ford racing 427 cam specs and it is not as aggressive and guaranteed to have hydraulic rollers. The force generatd by impacts are exponential as compared to constant loading, I assume the lash with solid rollers may allow the lifter to hammer the camshaft on the backside of the lobe, this usually doesn't happen with hydraulic rollers because the lifter would pump up and your valves would hang open and you would know you are doing it UNLESS you set your hydraulic lifters at zero lash, another slipperly slope.

In the end you will be much happier with a milder cam, hydraulic roller set up, reasonable spring pressure (300-400lbmax), then just drive and forget.

[bermblaster41]

Madmaxx the open Ht 1.250 @ 400lbs Installed HT is 1.850 @150lbs

Rick Lake My last cam on the dyno was over 400 torque at the rear wheels at 2300 rpm and 437 hp at rear wheels At 5900. I liked everything about my cam except the longevity of it. Hoping to get somthing similar in a hyd roller version. I loved the rough idle. the power. Chances are there will be no track track time but will never see over 6000 rpm. Thanks Berm

[Z-linkCobra]

To me it looks as if the seat pressure is too low. Bouncing the lifter on the lobe will take it out and in a hurry. Closed seat pressure should be somewhere around 225 and 450 +/- open.

Just my thoughts.

[madmaxx]

A couple items to note:

I agree wth Z-link you are bouncing off the backside of the cam, you accelerate up the ramp and lift off the peak and the spring pressure can keep the roller on the cam. You would see spalling more than wear on the cam but you would ruin the roller bearings in your lifter due to the hammering. Absolutely no reason to run solid rollers with your spring pressure, you could have EASILY gotten away with standard off the shelf ford racing hydraulic lifters if you only needed 400 lbs, My bet is you need close to 450 lb which is the highest I would run hydraulic lifters not due the hydraulics but due to the roller bearings.

Keith Craft has some high rpm lifters, he modifies Ford Racing i think, set at 1/4 turn preload and you will get another 500 rpm before instability, needless to say the highest I would turn a hydraulic lifter is 6000 rpm's which should be right for your engine.

[madmaxx]

I dont think you need 225 close pressure, I would look more on the 170lb closed, 450lb open. I know with a similiar or even less agressive cam and with 140 seat and 372 open the valves floated. In other words the lifter left the cam, hydraulic lifter did it job, took up the valve train slack pumped up. The problem is once the lifter contacts the cam again, the vavle train is out of "adjustment" and the valves hung open until the engine was shutdown and the lifters were left to bleed down and adjust properly. A hydraulic lifter under 60 psig of oil pressure has a open FORCE of about 40 lbs, as you can see with spring pressure this is well below what it would take to open the valve but enough to take the slop out of the valve train. You may be asking why doesnt the lifter collapse when you apply 450 lbs of pressure, it is because when you try to push the lifter down a check vlv block oil flow and it turns solid. Pretty darn nifty design!!!!!!