Change of oil and found metallic spring etc inside - need your advise.

[andronikos916]

Hello guys,

I removed the bearings today. Crankshaft seems ok. A professional will check it of course. (if it is 100% round, scars etc). There are some tiny scars but lets see what the guy will say.

Here are the latest pics of the rod bearings and Crankshaft.
www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/30maysm.zip (12.7mb)

Wbulk: Thank you for the information.
DAVID: From where can I order that red warning light with a 20Lb. psi sender ?
Eljaro: Thank you for the advice. Yes I will do as you suggested. Shipping the engine to US cost around 2000$. So I think your advice is the best for me.
Can you point which exact book / manual I will need?

I found this one:
Ford Engine Overhaul Haynes Techbook

If crank and cylinders are good I am thinking to fix it for the summer (with correct valve train geometry etc) and do a fully crazy rebuilt during winter and take my time.

My car is a Backdraft.

Once again thank you for the help - Andronikos,

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by andronikos916

Here are the latest pics of the rod bearings and Crankshaft.
www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/30maysm.zip (12.7mb)

Downloading and extracting compressed images is asking a lot from some of the old geezers on this site. Here, I set up a page with all the high-res images easily displayed: Andronikos Engine Shots

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by andronikos916

Hello guys,

I removed the bearings today. Crankshaft seems ok. A professional will check it of course. (if it is 100% round, scars etc). There are some tiny scars but lets see what the guy will say.

Here are the latest pics of the rod bearings and Crankshaft.
www.ixorvfx.com/files/temp/30maysm.zip (12.7mb)

Wbulk: Thank you for the information.
DAVID: From where can I order that red warning light with a 20Lb. psi sender ?
Eljaro: Thank you for the advice. Yes I will do as you suggested. Shipping the engine to US cost around 2000$. So I think your advice is the best for me.
Can you point which exact book / manual I will need?

I found this one:
Ford Engine Overhaul Haynes Techbook

If crank and cylinders are good I am thinking to fix it for the summer (with correct valve train geometry etc) and do a fully crazy rebuilt during winter and take my time.

My car is a Backdraft.

Once again thank you for the help - Andronikos,

oil pressure warning light with all fittings, here, all for $19.99..........

GAGELITES

David

[andronikos916]

Thank you David.

[andronikos916]

1 more thing I need to mention guys - I am thinking / trying to solve the mystery what failed 1st and caused that damage.

I know that the valve train clearances where not perfect ( rockers almost touching the valve retainers etc.. and the gaskets where wrong (nothing to do with the failure) - but I never mentioned that the 2nd day of having the car - I tried to start the engine but I was not successful - only after 1hr of trying with fuel pump on - off etc etc.

So here is the story:

After 2-3 times of the ignition button the battery start dying...That was weird...It died super fast.

If you have seen my first video I am describing that it was very difficult to start the engine once - and a big black / wet spot was on my fence that day.

Do you think that the electric fuel pressure caused the carburetor & cylinder(s) to take more fuel and when I tried to start the engine and caused that damage on the valve train?

I am not saying that it is supposed to happen but maybe I left the fuel pump too long? 30sec - 1min? Is that a possible scenario?

Best - Andronikos,

[Wbulk]

Thanks patrickt for doing that. Andronikos, main journals in pictures 0017 and 0019 concerns me. Can you get a better shot? If that is not bad you may have lucked out big time. Looking at that pump no wonder the pump shaft broke. That screen is so fine I can't imagine metal going through it to cause that pump to fail. Maybe a weld flaw or debris inside the pick-up tube that broke loose, who knows. So it looks like the pump failed and broke the pump shaft. The loss of pressure caused the lifters to lose pressure and bounce in their bores until two popped out. You should have had major lifter noise. A lot of clattering!
Any other theories?

Wayne

[Eljaro]

I think a very good book for the 351W engine you have is HPBooks How to Rebuild Small-Block Ford Engines Book By Tom Monroe. I have the Steve Christ book for the Big Block Fords and it is simply outstanding.
I agree with Wayne, the culprit has been something which was either inside the oil pump or the pickup tube ( some loose casting material or a welding residue from a not so good product) , because I can not imagine anything that big getting past the screen.
You HAVE to get the crank out: pìcture 17 shows a main journal I would not like to live with.One of the Con rods has taken some heat (the yellowish one) and is probably deformed, so you will have to replace that one too.
Mentalize yourself that the engine has to come out and the crank reground. You will need some bits and pieces to replace broken parts.
Otherwise nothing that can not be done. Plenty of help here in the Forum too.

[GH427]

[quote=Eljaro;1131926]I think a very good book for the 351W engine you have is HPBooks How to Rebuild Small-Block Ford Engines Book By Tom Monroe.

Hi Andronikos, I was wondering if you ever got any feedback from your engine builder regarding the valvetrain failure. I agree with the others who advised you to rebuild the engine yourself and the book mentioned by Eljaro above is an excellent reference. Also, I have found a DVD called "Power Building Videos - Heads, Porting and Valve Trains" explains a lot of the valvetrain geometry issues and how to aet up a valvetrain properly. In addition it also has lots of other tips on cams, rocker arms, valve springs, etc that would come in very useful if you had not done this sort of thing before.
Don't be frightened of doing this stuff on your own. You need to educate yourself as much as possible beforehand and then take your time and make sure you have done everything step by step and remember to check your work several times over. The satisfaction from doing something like this yourself is enormous not to mention that you save considerably on assembly costs.http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/imag...lies/smile.gif
Hope everything goes well for you and your engine and please post more videos on you tube when you have your cobra up and running again.
Prwxora xwris fovo
George H.

[Eljaro]

From what I see the problem comes from the valvetrain in the first place. Something dropped from there and was picked up by the oil pump and seized it, leading to the broken oil pump shaft and the oil starvation and everything else thereafter.
Basically the studs for the rockers are too short or the pedestals on the heads wrongly machined . Maybe these rockers are not designed for these heads.
The stud barely engages the adjusting nut, the rockers sit too low on the head , the pushrods are probably too short and the valve retainers probably touch the rocker sometime during their travel.
The valve springs need be much stiffer for hydraulic lifters, because the heavier weight needs additional force to push them fast enough towards the cam lobe at high revs and prevent the pushrods from banging around and jumping out of its place, which is probably what happened and made the lifters break.
If the rocker studs are so bad off, I would suppose that the valve springs were badly chosen also.
If you look at the picture in this link http://www.racecar2000.com/ad-photos/44758-mod.jpgyou will see a Windsor 406, and the stud clearly sticks out of the adjusting nut and the rockers have much more space in relation to the retainers.
I would really like to know what the engine builder has to say to this. This is a perfectly botched job and a clear Warranty case, and the engine would have to be repaired by whoever built it at no cost to Andronikos.

Of course, there is allways the possibility that the previous owner did install this UPGRADE.

[andronikos916]

Hello guys,

First of all I want to say A big thank you!!!

Since I have started that post some months ago and many of you helped me so much, you deserve (at least) to know what was wrong - and what is the current status of my engine. If I rebuilt it? How? What parts? etc etc...

I feel way more experienced now - and this is something that only with your help and by using the clubcobra forum could have been achieved.

At the moment I am not in my home PC where I do have pics and detailed part numbers and measurments to share but I finally have the engine working fine.

In couple of days time I will provide further info as promised.

BTW: The car feels so much better now. I guess it is 100% normal since it had 2 valves off before and no oil! :-) Lets see if it will last. This is what shows a good engine - right?


Once again - thank you! ...Andronikos,

[andronikos916]

Hello guys,

So I decided to go with the semi-rebuilt root, and not with the full rebuilt. Some guys might argue here but I tried to reduce the cost of the repair while making sure that the parts I will not rebuilt are in good condition.

So I did not removed the crankshaft, pistons, valves etc. A mechanic checked the crank for scratches and if it is 100% round etc... Below it is the list from the parts that I bought.

It is also worth mentioning that the old pushrods where not bended. Also the previous length pushrods where totally wrong length and hitting the valvle cap.

The correct pushrod length is: 202 millimeters = 7.95275591 inches

The previous ones where: 5/16 in. Diameter and 19.8 centimeters =
7.79527559 inches. - and guess what, the old ones where touching like
crazy the retainer caps. Now are perfect center by using a marker pain
and we checked that there is good clearances on the retainer caps.

So the list:

*Comp Cams Roller Rocker Arm Set - $279
*Comp Cams Adjustable Pushrod Checker - $17

(then after checking the length using the below links as guide I ordered the *Trick Flow Specialties Pushrods TFS-21407950 - these are the one piece design)

Finding Proper Pushrod Length - Circle Track Magazine
COMP Cams® - Pushrods
Setting Pushrods Length, Quick and Easy- Car Craft Magazine
How to check push rod length. Plain English - YouTube
COMP Cams® Quick Tech: Achieving Proper Rocker Arm Geometry - YouTube

*Comp Cams Hydraulic Roller Lifters - $209
*ARP Rocker Studs - $39
*Melling HV Oil Pump -$57
*Moroso Oil Pump Pickup - $47
*Clevite Main Bearings - $38
*Clevite Rod Bearings - $25
*ARP Oil Pump Driveshaft - $20
*Mr. Gasket Intake Gaskets - $20
*Ford Racing Oil Pan Gasket - $19
*Felpro Valve Cover Gaskets (2 Sets) - $30
*Felpro Oil Pump/Pickup Gaskets - $4

...Also the belt was not properly aligned. So we machined a small bracket so we can offset it a bit. Now after 100miles seems all going smooth. The oil psi is reading around 70psi (cold) and 55-60psi (when hot). I guess that is normal since the viscosity of a liquid is dropping when temp is rising. I am not 100% sure if the carb is 100% well tuned. I bought a thick book about Daemon carbs - and I have started reading it. I guess - this will be my 2nd post. :-)

Important:
When I got the car from the original owner (at 670miles) the oil psi was not working correct. What I mean by that?

While I was driving the car the psi gauge was showing / jumping with super fast speed and showing randomly crazy values. (example = 60-0-10-0-50 etc)... Yes I was a newbie back then - and I believed that is normal. Also the previous owner told me that this is normal and should be the gauge's fault. So I was driving the car... I am still newbie but what I am thinking is that the oil pump rod was already broken. Since that rod became two pieces (as show in a previous image) I believe that the top and bottom part of that rod contacting each other creating some fast spinning and psi and that is why the jumps on the psi gauge. Then after some miles - due to friction no more touching = no more spinning = dead bearing etc...

To conclude: the engine was with the 2 rocker arm studs broken (sine the acceleration was not good - no way like it runs now! + those spark plugs where totally wet - not idling nice + difficult to start + a lot of smoke! (I can not believe I was not able to see these signs back then). But now that I know how it should run, I guess I will know next time.

Also the oil psi rod was already broken - because of the gauge jumping readings + the oil level was more that normal...(maybe not so important the level but if the oil does not circulate = then it rests down = higher readings)

Now I still have 1 tiny thing to fix. It is the oil temp gauge. This is dead also. Any help on that guys?


Best - Andronikos,

[392cobra]

You did nothing from a little extra oil in the pan to flooding the engine to cause the valve train a crater.

[mreid]

I'm curious about the engine builder's response also. In the mean time, take the oil pump out and see if you can turn it by hand. With no oil in it you should be able to turn it. Open it up and inspect the impeller looking for any debrise that could have caused it to seize. I also feel that you did nothing wrong to cause this problem other than buying a car with a problem engine. You are not to blame.

[madmaxx]

Once you realize everything is your fault, nobody has ever seen this before, you are a one off, nobody has the amount of issues you do, you will be much happier. In the future stick with mass produced vehicles with a 5 year / 100K warranty.

[Jac Mac]

Im curious, were you having to add coolant, or to be more correct, was the radiator coolant level dropping each time you used the car.

There are marks/indentations on the oil pump rotors that indicate some circlips or similar parts have tried to pass thru the pump ( yes the wire type circlips can get thru the pickup mesh )

madmaxx's comments in post 137 above are a bit harsh, but I can understand his sentiments, to continue to use any vehicle when it has an obvious problem transfers a large part of the responsibility to you or whomever drives it. I think the term is 'caveat emptor' or ' let the buyer beware'.... probably applies particularly in cars like this..

[madmaxx]

I meant no opinion towards the current thread owner or anyone else. I have had similiar problems in the past and it seams the owner is always blamed never the builder, manufacturer or parts supplier, so if I blame myself for everything it does not hurt so bad This poor guy got so screwed it hurts.

Originally Posted by Jac Mac

Im curious, were you having to add coolant, or to be more correct, was the radiator coolant level dropping each time you used the car.

There are marks/indentations on the oil pump rotors that indicate some circlips or similar parts have tried to pass thru the pump ( yes the wire type circlips can get thru the pickup mesh )

madmaxx's comments in post 137 above are a bit harsh, but I can understand his sentiments, to continue to use any vehicle when it has an obvious problem transfers a large part of the responsibility to you or whomever drives it. I think the term is 'caveat emptor' or ' let the buyer beware'.... probably applies particularly in cars like this..

[Curt C.]

What caused it to fail? I am not an expert but my opinion is as follows: Rocker stud failed (due to poor geometry and interference) causing lifter to pop out resutling in low oil pressure. Parts of broken lifter got into oil pump causing it to fail. Hard starting is the result of above failures. A little extra oil would not have caused a rocker to fail. What does the builder say?

[Jac Mac]

I dont see a failed rocker, I do see two broken rocker studs that do not appear to have had much thread engagement by the Posi Locks, the poor geometry would have created higher than normal loadings on the studs in this case which lead to the stud failures, from there on it was simply a train wreck, Andronikos has also got a video of him driving the car in Greece prior to the breakdown, did not sound healthy to me even then.

[Gaz64]

Correct.

A stud girdle would have prevented this.

Ultimately a rocker arm designed for large springs is needed.

Lucky it didn't drop valves with the rocker arm pushing on the retainer.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Correct.

A stud girdle would have prevented this.

Ultimately a rocker arm designed for large springs is needed.

Lucky it didn't drop valves with the rocker arm pushing on the retainer.

A stud girdle might have helped,maybe prolonged the studs from breaking,but sooner or later, something would have broken....or it would have dropped a valve..........when things are this much out of wack, it's just a matter of time before something fails and 690 miles is not that long a time............

David