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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2011, 03:29 AM
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Reworded questions...

For example, what does balanced to 28oz mean when describing an engine?
A: It means that the engine uses a 28oz imbalance (externally balanced). This typically means that the harmonic balancer and flywheel/flexplate are 28oz items.
Re-Q: But what do you mean, that the h-b and flywheel/flexplate are 28oz items? And the engine uses a 28oz imbalance? You know me Brent, I'm slow on the uptake.

Q:How does this affect clutch choice?
A: It doesn't. However, some guys want to have the pressure plate balanced with their rotating assembly as an option.
Re-Q: I can't find the email, but I thought you asked me awhile ago what engine imbalance for a particular flywheel or clutch selection?

Q: Also what is external balancing?
A: An externally balanced engine uses a weighted harmonic balancer and/or flywheel to keep the engine in balance.
Re-Q: I take it this is the quick,cheap version of engine balancing. Is this static or dynamic?

Q: How does a harmonic balancer work?
A: It uses different materials, such as rubber, fluid, polymers, etc. to help eliminate the vibration harmonics out of an engine.
Re-Q: Does an engine that is internally balanced have/require a h-b as well?

Q: What items are subjected to internal balancing? And is this balancing static or dynamic?
A: Everytime you balance a rotating assembly, it's dynamic. Go to YouTube and look for some rotating assembly balancing videos. The crankshaft is placed in a balancer and spun up to rpm. There are bobweights bolted to each rod journal which simulate the weights of the pistons/rings/rod bearings/rods/parasitic oil, etc.
Re-Q: Excuse my ignorance, but is the rotating assembly just the crank, or is it the crank/rods/pistons assembly?

Q: Is material typically added (weights) or removed?
A: It depends on which setup you have. You can do it either way, although the crankshaft manufacturer will design the counterweights on the crankshaft so that a target bobweight will be used.
Re-Q: Does the crank manufacturer (say, Scat?) balance his cranks, or does he leave that for the engine man?


Q: Do tailshafts normally need balancing?
A: If you're talking about a driveshaft, then yes.....always.
RE-Q: Halfshafts too?

Q: At what rpm point does extensive/comprehensive balancing become essential?
A: There's really not an "extensive" balancing. It's either balanced or it's not balanced.
Re-Q: OK...is there a a rpm level at which it is advisable to have the crank and rods and pistons all dynamically balanced?

Apologies if this is tedious going, but there'a a lot here that I understand a little, and don't understand a lot. Thanks for the time spent in replying. It's appreciated.
Cheers,
Glen
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Old 12-11-2011, 05:24 AM
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[quote=xb-60;1165098]Reworded questions...

For example, what does balanced to 28oz mean when describing an engine?
A: It means that the engine uses a 28oz imbalance (externally balanced). This typically means that the harmonic balancer and flywheel/flexplate are 28oz items.
Re-Q: But what do you mean, that the h-b and flywheel/flexplate are 28oz items? And the engine uses a 28oz imbalance? You know me Brent, I'm slow on the uptake.

The pieces don't weight 28oz; they have that much imbalance in them. They have a weight either bolted or welded to them, clocked at a particular spot that makes them out of balance.

Q:How does this affect clutch choice?
A: It doesn't. However, some guys want to have the pressure plate balanced with their rotating assembly as an option.
Re-Q: I can't find the email, but I thought you asked me awhile ago what engine imbalance for a particular flywheel or clutch selection?

Flywheels are categorized by imbalance...0, 28, 50, etc. Flywheels matter, but pressure plates are not rated that way.

Q: Also what is external balancing?
A: An externally balanced engine uses a weighted harmonic balancer and/or flywheel to keep the engine in balance.
Re-Q: I take it this is the quick,cheap version of engine balancing. Is this static or dynamic?

It's often easier because you usually don't have to add metal to the crankshaft. Always dynamic. Always.

Q: How does a harmonic balancer work?
A: It uses different materials, such as rubber, fluid, polymers, etc. to help eliminate the vibration harmonics out of an engine.
Re-Q: Does an engine that is internally balanced have/require a h-b as well?

Yes.


Q: What items are subjected to internal balancing? And is this balancing static or dynamic?
A: Everytime you balance a rotating assembly, it's dynamic. Go to YouTube and look for some rotating assembly balancing videos. The crankshaft is placed in a balancer and spun up to rpm. There are bobweights bolted to each rod journal which simulate the weights of the pistons/rings/rod bearings/rods/parasitic oil, etc.
Re-Q: Excuse my ignorance, but is the rotating assembly just the crank, or is it the crank/rods/pistons assembly?

Everything that rotates or reciprocates. This includes the crankshaft, rods, pistons, rod bearings, piston rings, piston locks, etc.

Q: Is material typically added (weights) or removed?
A: It depends on which setup you have. You can do it either way, although the crankshaft manufacturer will design the counterweights on the crankshaft so that a target bobweight will be used.
Re-Q: Does the crank manufacturer (say, Scat?) balance his cranks, or does he leave that for the engine man?

He has no way of knowing which rods, pistons, etc. that are going to be used. They are designed for a target "bobweight." For instance, a crankshaft is designed to be internally balanced with an 1800 gram bobweight. If the weight of your pistons/rods/rings/bearings,etc. weigh more than that, then you will need to add metal to the crankshaft to keep it balanced. If your bobweight is lighter, then you can likely get away with removing metal from the crankshaft.

Q: Do tailshafts normally need balancing?
A: If you're talking about a driveshaft, then yes.....always.
RE-Q: Halfshafts too?

I would, yes.

Q: At what rpm point does extensive/comprehensive balancing become essential?
A: There's really not an "extensive" balancing. It's either balanced or it's not balanced.
Re-Q: OK...is there a a rpm level at which it is advisable to have the crank and rods and pistons all dynamically balanced?

Read Keith's explanation above....he did a good job of explaining this part.

Before you ask any more questions, you need to watch a video or two on YouTube about it. It will clear up a lot of things you're having trouble with. You need to forget the static/dynamic questions as it's all dynamic. You don't balance a rotating assembly by just letting it sit there. It's all spun at rpm.
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Old 12-11-2011, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by blykins View Post

....Before you ask any more questions, you need to watch a video or two on YouTube about it. It will clear up a lot of things you're having trouble with....
Thanks Brent. It's a steep learning curve, and I appreciate all the replies.
I've seen some videos, but they have been the results of out-of-balance, not "how-to", and "why?" I'll look some more.
Cheers,
Glen
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Old 12-11-2011, 05:19 PM
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Step by step.....

The Balancing Process from Coast High Performance - YouTube
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Old 12-11-2011, 06:55 PM
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http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/scatt...k_the_Nose.pdf

After you have watched that video, check out number 5 of this page---in the video look at all the holes he drilled into the counter weights to try to balance the assy with external weighed flywheel and dampner--In Scat's tech section in very plain language talk about how much to drill and this guy evidently didn't read it--
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Old 12-11-2011, 09:35 PM
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Hey Ho, another scrap crank, and soon to be followed by a scrap block after # 2 and 4 main caps have been shaken to bits and the main bolt registers have cracked from top to bottom.
Personally I liked the bit where he DOESN'T check the alignment of the bob weights.
I may not be able to post something on U- Tube ( whatever that is ) but I can balance a crank properly.

Mike
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Old 12-12-2011, 02:44 AM
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Haha....the wolves are out tonight....

Remember guys, this is a very fundamental thread on balancing. We're not teaching him to be a machinist.
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton View Post
http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/scatt...k_the_Nose.pdf

After you have watched that video, check out number 5 of this page---in the video look at all the holes he drilled into the counter weights to try to balance the assy with external weighed flywheel and dampner--In Scat's tech section in very plain language talk about how much to drill and this guy evidently didn't read it--
So, what - would that crank go out as a balanced crank, or would it be a scrapper, Jerry?
Cheers,
Glen
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Old 12-13-2011, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blykins View Post
Just got to it Brent. Like they say, a picture's worth a thousand words. So it seems that a non-race engine, up to 6500rpm max, external balance is sufficient. So how many - what percentage - of these engines would you internally balance? And what's a typical added cost to a motor for blueprinting/balancing?
Cheers,
Glen
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb-60 View Post
So how many - what percentage - of these engines would you internally balance? And what's a typical added cost to a motor for blueprinting/balancing?
Cheers,
Glen
If I'm building the engine from the ground up, it will usually get internally balanced.

Blueprinting has nothing to do with balancing, it's part of the mock-up and assembly process.

A balance job will start at around $200 and can easily go past $400-500 if a lot of heavy metal needs to be added. The last Scat forged 351C rotating assembly that I did required 6 pieces of heavy metal, even with an I-beam rod and a Diamond piston. That added a huge amount to the balancing bill...
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Old 12-13-2011, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blykins View Post
If I'm building the engine from the ground up, it will usually get internally balanced.

Blueprinting has nothing to do with balancing, it's part of the mock-up and assembly process.

A balance job will start at around $200 and can easily go past $400-500 if a lot of heavy metal needs to be added. The last Scat forged 351C rotating assembly that I did required 6 pieces of heavy metal, even with an I-beam rod and a Diamond piston. That added a huge amount to the balancing bill...
That sort of cost sounds reasonable to me.
Doesn't blueprinting involve selecting components, or adjusting components (as was seen in that You-Tube video, where the conrods were being ground) so that they are the same weight?
Cheers,
Glen

Last edited by xb-60; 12-13-2011 at 04:48 AM.. Reason: wanted to
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