460 Windsor or move to a big block

[jacobsed]

I know when my Ford Racing 514 was being marketed it was meant for drag and circle track racing. It didn't oil itself well just cruising around which is obviously a problem.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by 750hp

Just trying to understand your thought process. If it's a mild and relatively low-maintenance combination that makes more power and torque than you wanted, why does it matter how high you can spin it?

Do you want high rpm capability, bulk streetable low rpm torque, good gas mileage, lightest possible weight, maximum horsepower, no maintenance, or a budget crate engine? Brent can incorporate a number of these things, but not all of them...

It doesn't matter but I was just asking for that type of combo what the RPM range would be. When you go on 460ford and read all the build threads people are spinning those things from 5500-7000 and making all sorts of different power. I was just wondering with what Brent had mentioned where he was at with the RPM.

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Agree.

700/557 = 1.25hp per cubic inch.

Sounds like a combo that would blow the tyres off, from anywhere in the rpm band.

Who cares about how high you can spin it?

Sure you could spend another 30k on it to spin to 9000 rpm and make 1000+hp but you won't get 150000 miles out of it.

It's all about compromise and making a suitable package for the intended usage.

I was inquiring about the 557 he mentioned. I don't see the point in a wild big block in one of these cars. It seems like a mild big block would allow you to have more power than you could use and never leave you wanting more.

Originally Posted by blykins

It's hard to have your cake and eat it too. High rpms don't jive with streetability, ease of tuning, longevity, etc.

A big inch BBF would probably make that kind of horsepower on 87 octane at 6000 rpm.

I would be fine with 6000RPM.....I took an 80 mile spin last night and I may have hit 6000RPM+ a single time. 90% of the time I'm between 2000-4000K but I like the big power up top. I'm lucky to have access to 93 octane here but that is pretty encouraging to think you could make close to 700hp on 87. I'm assuming your torque would be close to 700 as well.

[Ace23]

Just got back in from a nice 80 mile or so cruise through some backroads and a bit of interstate. What a beautiful day no clouds and 65-70 degrees.....man these cars are so much fun!

What size exhaust should you be running on a stroked big block setup? I'm moving to 3" and I figured that would suffice in the future but I was just curious. I'm sure 3.5 is even better but that would be insanely loud.

[CraftEngines]

The Brodix T1 heads we do are a 225cc intake runner. They flow similar to the AFR 220 heads we use on our 460ci crate engines. These typically make about 625hp/600ft/lbs torque depending on camshaft. So far we have had good luck with the 4.250" stroke and have been building them well before FRPP started them. If you do not want that much stroke you could always go the 4.170" route and be around 450ci. The Big block engines are definitely more bang for the buck if starting from scratch. A rotating assembly and notching a block would be much cheaper since you already have the sbf parts. Also consider the loss of rear percentage and added torque, will be a little hard to get it to the ground down low.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by CraftEngines

The Brodix T1 heads we do are a 225cc intake runner. They flow similar to the AFR 220 heads we use on our 460ci crate engines. These typically make about 625hp/600ft/lbs torque depending on camshaft. So far we have had good luck with the 4.250" stroke and have been building them well before FRPP started them. If you do not want that much stroke you could always go the 4.170" route and be around 450ci. The Big block engines are definitely more bang for the buck if starting from scratch. A rotating assembly and notching a block would be much cheaper since you already have the sbf parts. Also consider the loss of rear percentage and added torque, will be a little hard to get it to the ground down low.

Keith built the motor in my current car back in 2004. It was built for the original owner and is still running strong after some things were sorted on the car. I like the Rpms but the cam isn't so great on the street....it has good street manners but it's just pretty lazy below 4K. The cam is .576 lift with 252/262 duration with 112 LSA installed at zero degrees with dyno showing peak power of 592hp at 6900. You guys also helped the owner source the 2" primary size headers back in the day. I've been told the 2" headers are too big but I've also been told to keep them....what is your opinion? You guys also built my friends 445 Windsor using a very similar hydraulic cam but at 108 LSA and it's right at 600hp or a bit over....he is using 3:46 gears compared to my 3:31 but that thing flys. Thanks for the heads up on the Brodix heads.... My build receipt shows trax1 but I didn't know any additional info Congrats on the acquisition of the business.

[Gaz64]

If you have a 5 or 6 speed, I would look at a diff ratio change to 3.5, 3.7 or even 3.9s.

You may be surprised at how much more the car has everywhere.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

If you have a 5 or 6 speed, I would look at a diff ratio change to 3.5, 3.7 or even 3.9s.

You may be surprised at how much more the car has everywhere.

Gaz, I have a TKO-600 with the .82 5th gear. I have considering going to a 3:73 rear or higher gear but I would want to have the .64 5th gear ratio so that I could maintain lower rpms when cruising at interstate speed. The plan is to go forward with the camshaft that Brent specified and then I will evaluate anything else that I need to do.....I do believe the gearing would make a difference and that's an inexpensive solution that many overlook.

[GBowman]

Wouldn't detonation be a concern at 2000-2200 RPM's in a stroked SBF making 650HP?

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by GBowman

Wouldn't detonation be a concern at 2000-2200 RPM's in a stroked SBF making 650HP?

Gary I would defer that question to Brent or someone that builds these things. How is your setup treating you and do you ever find yourself wanting a bit more? That is an awesome motor you have....I've watched Vintage's youtube video many times.

[CraftEngines]

Primary size somewhat depends on the driving characteristics you are looking for. The larger diameter will make more high rpm power as a smaller diameter will make better low end torque. As far as detonation is concerned, you can make 650hp without that issue. As long as you keep the compression low enough and make up the power in cubic inch, head flow, and camshaft. This of course may hurt the low end drive-ability but it is possible.

[GBowman]

Brent spec'd the 3:73/.82 OD for that reason FYI, I am very happy with the set up now. I have right around 2500 miles and finally have the car dialed in, I have adjusted lash once (needed almost no adjusting). We put all top end stuff in there so it should stay together

I broke an output shaft on a hard launch which made Brent happy so I replaced those with much stronger ones, also got a Diff from Diffsonline so as to remove any potential weak link back there.

Vintage put some really sweet springs and bushings on which vastly improved ride and handling.

Very happy with all of it thx.

[GBowman]

As for wanting more-no way over 660HP is more than enough in these cars, I'm turning 50 soon and my risk tolerance has waned a tad. I cant even imagine any more power, I know Vintage has put some insane power in a car or two so Jay could comment more but I just don't see using anymore than I have.

[blykins]

What Gary was referring to was the dreaded "buck" that you get when the engine doesn't like to be loaded at low rpms. It's usually due to a big cam that's inefficient at low rpms and high rearend gears/overdrive gears.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by CraftEngines

Primary size somewhat depends on the driving characteristics you are looking for. The larger diameter will make more high rpm power as a smaller diameter will make better low end torque. As far as detonation is concerned, you can make 650hp without that issue. As long as you keep the compression low enough and make up the power in cubic inch, head flow, and camshaft. This of course may hurt the low end drive-ability but it is possible.

That is along the lines of what I've been told but did not know at what point you cross that line. I've you are running a hydraulic roller and staying under 6500rpm the smaller headers probably make more since on a street car. I'm not sure what the guy had in mind when he commissioned the car I have but a track setup is what I would think. I'm not really sure its worth swapping headers at this point and especially if I change up the Windsor platform to something a bit larger down the road

Originally Posted by GBowman

Brent spec'd the 3:73/.82 OD for that reason FYI, I am very happy with the set up now. I have right around 2500 miles and finally have the car dialed in, I have adjusted lash once (needed almost no adjusting). We put all top end stuff in there so it should stay together

I broke an output shaft on a hard launch which made Brent happy so I replaced those with much stronger ones, also got a Diff from Diffsonline so as to remove any potential weak link back there.

Vintage put some really sweet springs and bushings on which vastly improved ride and handling.

Very happy with all of it thx.

That always good to hear when people are happy with what they have. After we make the change to the cam Brent specified I may look at the gearing as well. I want to try one thing at a time to see what works and what doesn't. Gary, I'm with you I think 650-700 is about the insane limit in one of these cars. I've driven a 615 445ci Windsor and another 75hp would be a handful. If I ever win the lottery I'm going to buy one of those Whipple charged backdrafts and have them build a full body crash cage with air bags and a parachute.

Originally Posted by blykins

What Gary was referring to was the dreaded "buck" that you get when the engine doesn't like to be loaded at low rpms. It's usually due to a big cam that's inefficient at low rpms and high rearend gears/overdrive gears.

Sounds like my car would have been a prime candidate for that if they LSA hadn't been at 112. What is your take on the potential for a 460 Windsor using my existing Brodix Trax 1 heads.....93 pump gas and peaking at 6000? And don't sound like a geezer and say more than your tires can hook up.Thanks

[brainsboy]

Having just built a 460 Windsor, I can tell you its not a saving money idea, even if you already have heads. Its just one of those things that's its easier said than done. There are a lot of issues and problems that most people don't realize and they all cost boat loads of money to address. Very few people have even posted on some of these problems so let me give an example, first is that when you put a 4.250 stroke into a Windsor your rods are going to hit the cam lobes. This means you will never be able to run a typical off the shelf camshaft in your motor. If your building a chevy, this is not a problem because chevys always have this problem, so every cam company carries cam cores with smaller diameters. Fords however never have this type of issue, this is important because for this reason no one carries smaller diameter cam cores for the ford small blocks. This now means your only choice is to have a billet cam cut from a solid chunk of steel. Don't confuse this with having a custom cam cut from a core, your now getting a billet custom cam. Lets say you throw down 800$ plus, on a nice new billet cam, which will be around a .300" smaller diameter than stock ford cams just to start with. Life is great now, but you now have an interference motor between the cam and rods, this is because a ford stock cam is somewhere around 1.4" diameter, so now your going to end up with a billet custom ground cam say around a max of 1.100", this is just enough to clear lobes against the rods, this means you have interference points when the motor is not in perfect timing. If you jump a tooth or break a timing chain then your also breaking internal engine parts, rods, cam, block. Also how much smaller of a cam do you need to clear rods? 1.100"? 1.000" .900" How do you tell what you need?, how small can you go without cam deflection? Are you thinking about smaller rods yet? How much smaller than 2.1" chevy journals are you going to run? How much smaller on a crank journals can you grind before heat treating is gone? Do you get a billet crank with Honda journals? Are the Honda rods strong enough? Don't expect the cam company tell you what you need, or expect a refund when the new billet cam still doesn't clear. Im not saying all this cant be done, and Im not trying to say don't do it, I just want to get you to think about the problems and time that is spent on this type of project. The list go's on for other problems. You can have a builder do all the work for you, but these problems are still there, you just wont be the one choosing how to address the problems, in some cases you wont even be told about them until you go to change cams and the motor wont turn over. Just something to think about

[Pman1961]

I agree with bainsboy comments as I have experienced the same issues in a 434 sbc.

A lower gear if you like your existing engine combo or the proposed cam change with the current gearing. Either way would be a noticeable improvement. Ahhh....decisions

[Three Peaks]

I have a 392 stroker on a stock 74 Windsor block and a Comp Cams XE 294 cam. 35-254-4 - Xtreme Energy

From the person I bought the cam from he had it in just about an identical engine set up as mine and had it dynoed at around 515 hp. I just finished the car a couple months ago and it is a beast to drive, but it also doesn't like to drive much below about 1800 rpm. I have 3.27 rear gears and it is pretty slow to get going in 1st gear sometimes unless I lay into it, then it is crazy. I will be considering changing out to 3.55 or 3.73 gears one of these days but I can live with it at the moment as I can break the rears loose in 4th gear without trying too hard. I'm sure it helps my car only weighs about 2,000 lbs.

If it were me, I would change out the cam to something with a better low end and mid range and change the rear gears to around 3.73 or so. It will feel like a completely different car. I don't think I would worry too much about the exhaust. I run 1 7/8" headers and it sounds and runs great after warming up- don't have a choke on my Holley 750 dp.
A few suspension tweeks may also make the car a bit more enjoyable to drive but I would try the cam/rear gears first and see where you end up. You can just about guarantee Brent can help you out with some solid advice when the time comes. I've always been impressed by his no-nonsense approach to engine building and customer service.

Bob

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by brainsboy

Having just built a 460 Windsor, I can tell you its not a saving money idea, even if you already have heads. Its just one of those things that's its easier said than done. There are a lot of issues and problems that most people don't realize and they all cost boat loads of money to address. Very few people have even posted on some of these problems so let me give an example, first is that when you put a 4.250 stroke into a Windsor your rods are going to hit the cam lobes. This means you will never be able to run a typical off the shelf camshaft in your motor. If your building a chevy, this is not a problem because chevys always have this problem, so every cam company carries cam cores with smaller diameters. Fords however never have this type of issue, this is important because for this reason no one carries smaller diameter cam cores for the ford small blocks. This now means your only choice is to have a billet cam cut from a solid chunk of steel. Don't confuse this with having a custom cam cut from a core, your now getting a billet custom cam. Lets say you throw down 800$ plus, on a nice new billet cam, which will be around a .300" smaller diameter than stock ford cams just to start with. Life is great now, but you now have an interference motor between the cam and rods, this is because a ford stock cam is somewhere around 1.4" diameter, so now your going to end up with a billet custom ground cam say around a max of 1.100", this is just enough to clear lobes against the rods, this means you have interference points when the motor is not in perfect timing. If you jump a tooth or break a timing chain then your also breaking internal engine parts, rods, cam, block. Also how much smaller of a cam do you need to clear rods? 1.100"? 1.000" .900" How do you tell what you need?, how small can you go without cam deflection? Are you thinking about smaller rods yet? How much smaller than 2.1" chevy journals are you going to run? How much smaller on a crank journals can you grind before heat treating is gone? Do you get a billet crank with Honda journals? Are the Honda rods strong enough? Don't expect the cam company tell you what you need, or expect a refund when the new billet cam still doesn't clear. Im not saying all this cant be done, and Im not trying to say don't do it, I just want to get you to think about the problems and time that is spent on this type of project. The list go's on for other problems. You can have a builder do all the work for you, but these problems are still there, you just wont be the one choosing how to address the problems, in some cases you wont even be told about them until you go to change cams and the motor wont turn over. Just something to think about

Well that sounds like a can of worms so I have to ask.....is this what you found out during your 460 build or did you go into knowing all of this? I've only spoken to 2 builders about SBF 460 using my existing Dart block but I didn't get the feeling they were swayed in another direction. I had to come back and edit this to say I forgot to tell you congrats on such a sweet looking motor as I noticed all the CHI product. What is this going in and what type of power did you make. Tell us more about your build.

Originally Posted by Pman1961

I agree with bainsboy comments as I have experienced the same issues in a 434 sbc.

A lower gear if you like your existing engine combo or the proposed cam change with the current gearing. Either way would be a noticeable improvement. Ahhh....decisions

We will soon found out between my 60 hour weeks and your side jobs!

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

I have a 392 stroker on a stock 74 Windsor block and a Comp Cams XE 294 cam. 35-254-4 - Xtreme Energy

From the person I bought the cam from he had it in just about an identical engine set up as mine and had it dynoed at around 515 hp. I just finished the car a couple months ago and it is a beast to drive, but it also doesn't like to drive much below about 1800 rpm. I have 3.27 rear gears and it is pretty slow to get going in 1st gear sometimes unless I lay into it, then it is crazy. I will be considering changing out to 3.55 or 3.73 gears one of these days but I can live with it at the moment as I can break the rears loose in 4th gear without trying too hard. I'm sure it helps my car only weighs about 2,000 lbs.

If it were me, I would change out the cam to something with a better low end and mid range and change the rear gears to around 3.73 or so. It will feel like a completely different car. I don't think I would worry too much about the exhaust. I run 1 7/8" headers and it sounds and runs great after warming up- don't have a choke on my Holley 750 dp.
A few suspension tweeks may also make the car a bit more enjoyable to drive but I would try the cam/rear gears first and see where you end up. You can just about guarantee Brent can help you out with some solid advice when the time comes. I've always been impressed by his no-nonsense approach to engine building and customer service.

Bob

I already have the cam that Brent specified so the plan is to change it and see how it goes.....if I still want more then gears would be next on the list. I'm expect we will see positive results from the cam alone. I've looked at the gearing calculator and with my TKO-600 with the .82 5th it doesn't really give a good outcome for interstate speeds.....looks like it will keep me about 2000rpm in 5th at 50mph and close to 3000rpm for 70mph which would suck.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by brainsboy

Having just built a 460 Windsor, I can tell you its not a saving money idea, even if you already have heads. Its just one of those things that's its easier said than done. There are a lot of issues and problems that most people don't realize and they all cost boat loads of money to address. Very few people have even posted on some of these problems so let me give an example, first is that when you put a 4.250 stroke into a Windsor your rods are going to hit the cam lobes. This means you will never be able to run a typical off the shelf camshaft in your motor. If your building a chevy, this is not a problem because chevys always have this problem, so every cam company carries cam cores with smaller diameters. Fords however never have this type of issue, this is important because for this reason no one carries smaller diameter cam cores for the ford small blocks. This now means your only choice is to have a billet cam cut from a solid chunk of steel. Don't confuse this with having a custom cam cut from a core, your now getting a billet custom cam. Lets say you throw down 800$ plus, on a nice new billet cam, which will be around a .300" smaller diameter than stock ford cams just to start with. Life is great now, but you now have an interference motor between the cam and rods, this is because a ford stock cam is somewhere around 1.4" diameter, so now your going to end up with a billet custom ground cam say around a max of 1.100", this is just enough to clear lobes against the rods, this means you have interference points when the motor is not in perfect timing. If you jump a tooth or break a timing chain then your also breaking internal engine parts, rods, cam, block. Also how much smaller of a cam do you need to clear rods? 1.100"? 1.000" .900" How do you tell what you need?, how small can you go without cam deflection? Are you thinking about smaller rods yet? How much smaller than 2.1" chevy journals are you going to run? How much smaller on a crank journals can you grind before heat treating is gone? Do you get a billet crank with Honda journals? Are the Honda rods strong enough? Don't expect the cam company tell you what you need, or expect a refund when the new billet cam still doesn't clear. Im not saying all this cant be done, and Im not trying to say don't do it, I just want to get you to think about the problems and time that is spent on this type of project. The list go's on for other problems. You can have a builder do all the work for you, but these problems are still there, you just wont be the one choosing how to address the problems, in some cases you wont even be told about them until you go to change cams and the motor wont turn over. Just something to think about

$800? Who in the world took you for $800?

I sell completely custom billet steel small base circle cams with comp lobes for $350.

If you wanted a billet steel 55mm cam, they are less than $475.

[CHANMADD]

Change the cam......no power below 4000rpm with a 427 cu motor does not sound like fun. We used to rev little 4 cup to 9k.a Windsor.......a cam with some torque...and you'll be good and a lot richer....😊