SBF build for ERA slabside

[fintubi]

Hi, all -

My ERA slabside is moving along in New Britain, so it's time to get serious about a powerplant.

The goal is a moderate street build (probably 331cid, compression to suit 91 octane California gas, hydraulic roller, modern Al heads and intake). No ambitions for track or strip; and the car will be traction-limited by the narrow rubber (215mm) that the slabside car can accommodate.

I'd like to have a significant hand in the engine build, but I'm also very aware of the value offered by our Friendly Forum Engine Builders (FFEBs).

The usual advice for mild SBF builds is "these engines are everywhere, just go find a good local guy," but I don't feel plugged-in enough to the community to feel comfortable with that. I don't want to get bounced around between random bits of conflicting local feedback like "Joe Smith is awesome, he'll take care of you" and "Joe Smith forgot to torque the main caps on my motor." By contrast, the reputations of the FFEBs are well established across a large data set on the forum.

So if I were looking for a crate motor I'd simply call an FFEB and be done.

However I'd like to build the motor at least from the shortblock stage. It'd be even cooler to start with a machined block and balanced rotating assembly and take it from there. I realize that this is likely not to save much dough - that's not the goal, it's more about the experience. I also realize that passing up an FFEB's assembly expertise, run-in/dyno test, and warranty could end up costing me dearly if things go south. I'd be totally open to working with one of them to source the components mentioned above; but I also recognize that it might not be cool to ask a builder to sign on for a block finder/part vendor/machine shop role.

So, any recommendations/experiences to share? Based on my research to date, assembling a mild SBF is doable if the machine shop work is good, you've read up or consulted on the right way to do everything, and you're disciplined about triple-checking dimensions, clearances, and steps taken.

My background:
- lots of mechanical experience, but have never assembled a shortblock before.
- lots of machine shop experience, but none of it automotive. Very familiar with precision measurement tools and their use.

Bill

[ACHiPo]

Bill,
If you want to have a hand in the build, I'd recommend joining the BACC breakfast some Saturday morning. Neil is the resident builder, and will help you as much as you want building your small block.

We meet at Clementines in San Ramone on Foothill at Bollinger Canyon. There's also a South Bay group, but I don't know many of the guys in that group.
Evan

[fintubi]

Thanks, Evan - great tip!

[tkb289]

Hi Bill,

Like Evan said, a BACC breakfast is a great place to meet fellow members and get input and suggestions for engines and engine builders. I am in the South Bay group and we we meet about once a month, typically at Alice’s in Woodside for breakfast.

I don't have any experience in building a motor, but if you decide to have a motor built, one builder than a few of us have used with great success is Tom Lucas of FE Specialities, he located in Auburn. Along with big blocks, Tom builds small blocks as well. So buy it or build it or start with a short block and finish it, each way has it’s own challenges and rewards. Have fun with your build, has Peter given you an estimated delivery date for your ERA slab side?

- Tim

[jolsen42]

I went with 1965 289. I built it to 289 Hi-Po specs. I used a flat tappet cam from Comp cams from their Nostalgia series and solid lifters. I have a very rare dual quad set up with the correct Carter carbs #'s 3258s and 3259s. It probably puts out about 325hp which is more than enough. It's perfect in a slabside.

John O




This size is much better.

[ACHiPo]

Originally Posted by jolsen42

I went with 1965 289. I built it to 289 Hi-Po specs. I used a flat tappet cam from Comp cams from their Nostalgia series and solid lifters. I have a very rare dual quad set up with the correct Carter carbs #'s 3258s and 3259s. It probably puts out about 325hp which is more than enough. It's perfect in a slabside.

John O

John,
That's a great looking motor!

[LMH]

Originally Posted by jolsen42

I went with 1965 289. I built it to 289 Hi-Po specs. I used a flat tappet cam from Comp cams from their Nostalgia series and solid lifters. I have a very rare dual quad set up with the correct Carter carbs #'s 3258s and 3259s. It probably puts out about 325hp which is more than enough. It's perfect in a slabside.

John O

That’s the same induction set up I have. The hard part to deal with was the air cleaners!
Larry

[olddog]

When I was about 6 or 7 my Dad pitched an old self propelled rotary mower, and kept the engine off of it. He showed me how to take it apart and put it back together. Then he had me do it. He gave it to me. I must have taken that engine apart and put it back together a million times. I spent half my child hood dragging lawn mowers out of dumps and getting them to run again.

By age 15 I had helped a friend build a 396/402 in his 1970 SS Chevelle. By 18 I had built a 327, & 350 Chevy, and 400 Chyrsler. At this point, in my life it was all redneck try it and see what happens, coupled with talking to other red neck gear heads.

Since then I have read a lot of books, learned a whole lot of things, I didn't know and likely got lucky on back then. I helped my sons build a few engines, as an adult.

That said, with your skills, I see know reason you could not build a small block, if you read some good books on the engine you are going to build. The critical factor is to understand the special little things that the particular engine you are building may have that is easy to miss. If you do your home work, you could build an FE, but they are full of things you have to know. It may be the most difficult engine to do. The good news is the SB Ford is a fairly easy design to work with.

There are still little things that you just have to know, like making sure the oil pick up is not too close to the bottom of the oil pan. Also there are a lot of things that require machine work, so work with a good shop to get all that done right.

Next you want to clean clean clean and clean again everything. Keep oil on parts so they do not rust and keep them covered so dust doesn't get on the oil.

Now assemble - don't bother to torque - check fit and disassemble as many times as necessary to be certain you know what you are doing and have everything perfect.

This is a generalization that is missing a whole bunch of specific things. Like putting rings in the finished bore and squaring it with a piston. Then checking the ring gap to make sure it is in spec. There really is a lot of things that should be done, that if you buy all the right parts and get lucky they will fit, but if you do not check you just might have to start all over again.

PS
I learned the hard way on the BB Chrysler that if you bolt the rocker arm shaft on upside down, no oil is pumped to the top of the engine. Lot's of little things that you could easily over-look.

[fintubi]

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone.

And John O, that's a sharp 289! Tim, looking forward to catching you at Alice's sometime soon and seeing #2136 again. olddog, sounds like you learned a lot the fun way!

No formal date from Peter for #3014, but I'm reading the tea leaves based on the guys in front of me in line. AndrewB's #3012 is about to ship out to him, and I've seen pictures of what I think is #3013 in assembly. Mine is in the chassis plumbing/body finishing stage. I'm figuring on bonding happening over the remainder of this quarter, then off to paint after that.

Best,

Bill

[jolsen42]

Originally Posted by LMH

That’s the same induction set up I have. The hard part to deal with was the air cleaners!
Larry

Larry, there is a story behind this set up. A friend of mine and I both bought Mustangs when they first came out. I in May of '64 and he in Feb of'65. He purchased this dual quad from Ford in 1967 and ran them for awhile. When he sold his Mustang, around 1970 he removed the dual quads. I purchased them from him around 1972 and held on to them until I put them on a 65 Hi-Po Mustang that I restored in 1989. The air cleaners were starting to rust. I saw an ad in the old Shelby "Snake Bite" classifieds from Fran Kress for a set of NOS air cleaners. I paid $300.00 for them. First of all try and find a NOS or even a set of these air cleaners, and if you are lucky enough to find them you would pay a hell of a lot more than $300.00. After running with them for a few years I wanted to compete in Concours class so I removed them and went stock. I sold them to another friend and he knew the history I had with this set-up, so he said if I ever wanted them back he would sell them to me. Well after 23yrs I finally am reunited with them, and they are back where they belong.

Here is a pic of them on my Mustang.


John O

[LMH]

Very cool!
I actually have two sets (4) of S&H air cleaners... but don’t tell anyone! You can never have enough spares!
Larry

[jolsen42]

Originally Posted by LMH

Very cool!
I actually have two sets (4) of S&H air cleaners... but don’t tell anyone! You can never have enough spares!
Larry

My lips are sealed. I won't tell a soul.

John O

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by jolsen42

Here is a pic of them on my Mustang.


John O

Hi John,

A little off topic, but a positive terminal on the outside of the engine bay near the metalwork of the front guards etc is not safe in the event of an accident.

I hated this idea on early cars years ago, new cars these days have the positive towards the centre of the car.

Otherwise, I would be proud to have that setup under my bonnet.

Gary

[PoppyMod]

[quote=

Hi, all -

My ERA slabside is moving along in New Britain, so it's time to get serious about a powerplant.

The goal is a moderate street build (probably 331cid, compression to suit 91 octane California gas, hydraulic roller, modern Al heads and intake). No ambitions for track or strip; and the car will be traction-limited by the narrow rubber (215mm) that the slabside car can accommodate.

I'd like to have a significant hand in the engine build, but I'm also very aware of the value offered by our Friendly Forum Engine Builders (FFEBs).

The usual advice for mild SBF builds is "these engines are everywhere, just go find a good local guy," but I don't feel plugged-in enough to the community to feel comfortable with that. I don't want to get bounced around between random bits of conflicting local feedback like "Joe Smith is awesome, he'll take care of you" and "Joe Smith forgot to torque the main caps on my motor." By contrast, the reputations of the FFEBs are well established across a large data set on the forum.

So if I were looking for a crate motor I'd simply call an FFEB and be done.

However I'd like to build the motor at least from the shortblock stage. It'd be even cooler to start with a machined block and balanced rotating assembly and take it from there. I realize that this is likely not to save much dough - that's not the goal, it's more about the experience. I also realize that passing up an FFEB's assembly expertise, run-in/dyno test, and warranty could end up costing me dearly if things go south. I'd be totally open to working with one of them to source the components mentioned above; but I also recognize that it might not be cool to ask a builder to sign on for a block finder/part vendor/machine shop role.

So, any recommendations/experiences to share? Based on my research to date, assembling a mild SBF is doable if the machine shop work is good, you've read up or consulted on the right way to do everything, and you're disciplined about triple-checking dimensions, clearances, and steps taken.

My background:
- lots of mechanical experience, but have never assembled a shortblock before.
- lots of machine shop experience, but none of it automotive. Very familiar with precision measurement tools and their use.

Bill[/QUOTE]

Hi Bill,
With the help of my cam grinder, I built (assembled) my own SBF. It started life as a 289, went through the 302 iteration and is now a 331. Being a street warrior, I wanted a reliable big torque street performer. This meant not too large heads and chose TFS 170 Twisted wedge heads. These are a few of build facts:
Rotating Assembly:
Bored and stroked to 333 cu.in. consisting of a 3.25” crank, 5.400” rods and .040 bore. Pistons are “Probe” flat tops (CH 1.175, before milling) with valve reliefs CC’d at 3.606 with 1.162” (after milling .013”) compression height. This places the piston above deck .005”. A new balanced flex-plate and Professional Products harmonic balancer is added.

Heads:
TFS Twisted Wedge heads with 170 runners, blended bowls, and 2.020 Int. and 1.60 Exh. Heads have been shaved to create a chamber size of 56 CCs. Compression ratio is 10.6 CR, using a .039 gasket. FelPro #1011-2

Cam and Valve train:
Custom (CI) designed, specifically, to maximize the use of these TW heads equipped with CompCam’s link-bar roller lifters. Maximum RPM is set at 7000 RPMs. The roller rockers are CompUltra Gold roller rockers with 1.6 ratio. Trick Flow® Chromemoly Pushrods; Heat-Treated, 5/ 16 in. Diameter, and 6.750 in. length, are premium hardened units.
I'm currently running a Performer RPM intake with Dual 40mm WEBER carbs. It's been a reliable strong running engine that dynoed at 375+ RWHP with 400 RWTQ.
In any build, it's the attention to detail that makes a difference. One of the most important aspects is a quality valvetrain. After all, the VT transfers the cam events to the valves. If they deflect or not set correctly, you don't get all of the benefit of the cams events.
If you PM, I'll supply the cam specs.

[blykins]

I can machine a block for you, get the rotating assembly here, and do all the bearing clearance checks/adjustments for you. The majority of the work in putting a SBF short block together is making sure the bearing clearances are correct and making sure the rotating assembly clears the block.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by olddog

....you want to clean clean clean and clean again everything....

That was the most valuable lesson I learned from my first rebuild!

Cheers,
Glen

[Mark O'Neal]

I put a 620 H/P 418 in my Backdraft car.

It probably wasn't the smartest thing I've ever done.

[66gtk]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Hi John,

A little off topic, but a positive terminal on the outside of the engine bay near the metalwork of the front guards etc is not safe in the event of an accident.

I hated this idea on early cars years ago, new cars these days have the positive towards the centre of the car.

Otherwise, I would be proud to have that setup under my bonnet.

Gary

Gary,
In '66 the Mustang included a piece of high density rubber mounted to the inside of the engine compartment next to the battery. They also put a piece of rubber on the fan shroud next to the battery.