Windsors Overheating

MidOHasp · #1 (**permalink**) 07-27-2003, 09:50 AM

Anyone know of any unconventional means to reduce overheating in Windsors (or in general?) Running a 408 stroker, fairly strong (508 flywheel HP, 540 lbft), can't seem to keep it cool. Think I just recently got all the air out as the really bad temp spiking is going away, but when you are into it (and I'm always into it), the temp starts climbing and I have been shutting it down lately pretty quickly. Got too scared watching the temp gauge hit 137C (278F) back when I was spiking.

I eliminated the bulls**t surge tank that I had installed and once the checkbook cools down, I'm going to replace it. Current plans for the next week include:

-Install overdrive water pump pulley
-Remove 50/50 fluid, replace w/ distilled water and water wetter
-Replace stat with Robertshaw unit

I'm hoping from what I've read in some of these pages, that will do the trick, especially once I get a surge tank back on there.

Any other suggestions though? I'm assuming being a brand new SPF, the radiator is good. Just thought some of you in your infinite experiences could offer up some suggestions I may not have thought of.

Thanks!

Rick Parker · #2 (**permalink**) 07-27-2003, 12:23 PM

Some time ago I had a similar temprature/indicated overheating & temp spiking problem. Symptoms: Running down the road and temp guage would gradually climb to 180 where thermostat opened. Temp would immediately drop to 140 and begin climbing fast to 210-220 then drop very quickly to 160-180 and start climbing quickly again. Turned out to be the waterpump itself. I had purchased a rebuilt one at the parts house. The impeller was the stamped steel type without curved vanes. Water pump was cavitating. I ultimately bought an OEM Ford unit. This was not on a stroker but a very high strung 289 with conventional V-belt.

Good luck

Rick

MidOHasp · #3 (**permalink**) 07-27-2003, 12:32 PM

Thanks for the tip - I'm pretty sure ours is the cast impeller, it's an edelbrock "hi-vol" unit. They seem pretty reputable, but everyone makes a bad unit every now and then. If these changes I make this week don't give us desired results, I will definitely look more closely at the pump.

Rick Parker · #4 (**permalink**) 07-27-2003, 12:35 PM

What are you actually going to attempt to do to change the situation.?

MidOHasp · #5 (**permalink**) 07-27-2003, 01:39 PM

Since the really bad spiking, we eliminated the suge tank as I said before, and ran a straight fill tube. I think once it crept up to boiling point (we didn't have a full system, so this was happening pretty easily), we'd lose even more, get vapor pockets, and the system would not flow. There were times our radiator was ice cold yet the temp gauge read well in excess off 100C.

The spiking has stopped, we're not losing coolant, the fans are kicking on when they should be, etc... After each drive, we've found the coolant level "drops" slightly, but there is nothing in the catch can, which implies to me we're getting air out. The last test drive was spent redlining in gears 1-3 and a lot of very spirited driving. It didn't overheat that time, but crept up over 90C (195F). Temp was slowly up and down in the 70-80 range (stat opening and closing) and was climbing slowly up over 90.

At this point, things appear to be functioning properly (no major spikes) but at the high end of where we want to be. The plans right now are to replace the auto zone thermostat with a Robertshaw high volume unit (with bleed holes), to replace our underdrive pulley with an overdrive one, and to replace the 50/50 water/antifreeze with distilled water and water wetter.

I am hoping this will get our operating temps more consistently in the 170-180 range, seeing 190-200 only under extreme driving, in bad traffic, etc...

Tony Radford · #6 (**permalink**) 07-27-2003, 05:10 PM

J.P.,

Your situation sounds interesting (in an unfortunate sort of way). I'm running an unstroked Windsor and the temp is extremely stable. I run mine pretty hard and the temp remains constant regardless of whether I'm idling or screaming through the gears. I recently installed a 16" Spal puller fan that I'm running on a thermostat though it ran pretty cool with the 12" is was running before. I would be inclined to agree with a water pump problem, a slipping fan belt or something simple.

MidOHasp · #7 (**permalink**) 07-27-2003, 05:45 PM

Tony:

It's amazing sometimes the little things you don't even think about - like a slipping belt. It could be that it's no coincidence that things started running a heck of a lot cooler and more consistent after a decision to pull the v-belt off, check that the waterpump wasn't bound up at all, and reinstalling the belt and tightening it. One of the nuts on the belt tensioner could've broken loose on the very first day allowing the whole thing to loosen up.

I hadn't really noticed a real problem with the alternator charging, but then again there isn't a whole lotta draw on it, you know? With the temps I know this motor is making, that waterpump slowing down a little bit b/c of slip could make all the difference in the world.

Hopefully a tight belt, the right pulley, a better stat, and a better coolant mix, and I'll be able to scream through the gears. I've gotten to a few times before this all started coming apart, and what a teaser...whoo!

Thanks for the tip. I've been trying to pool knowledge around town and that's helpful, but having 7,000 cobra owners mulling it over is great (or the 40 or so who may have read this)!!

Thanks again....

MidOHasp · #8 (**permalink**) 07-27-2003, 05:47 PM

By the way...

You'll have to let me know how that new 427 stroker works out. I've been reading about them a lot lately, and they sound pretty snazzy. How are you getting there, with a standard bore and 4.3" stroke (?) or the bigger bore and shorter stroke. Will be nice to not have to explain how it's not a 427 but it's better. Now you can just say "yeah".

Bill Wells · #9 (**permalink**) 07-28-2003, 02:01 AM

JP / MidOHasp...keep working your check list as rest assured that radiator in your SPF will handle 520 or more cubes for cooling efficiency...my bet is your problem aint the radiator, but one or more of the items on your check list. The cooling capacity on the SPFs is great, when there is a problem it is engine related, or underdrive pulleys, or wrong pulley ratio, or bad stat or bad water pump...but NOT the radiator. good luck, bill, spf156

Bill Wells · #10 (**permalink**) 07-28-2003, 05:12 AM

JP / MidOHasp...another thought..

basics but often overlooked....

make sure BOTH fans are running...and make sure they are BOTH SUCKING/PULLING air !! ie, pulling air thru the radiator , from front to rear towards the engine !

sometimes the connectors to one of the fans gets reversed when connected. when that happens the fan(s) will run in reverse direction, ie, they will be PUSHING air from back to front. that worsens the condition. you could have one not working or one pulling and one pushing . happened to me when i had disconnected them and then wondered why my engine temps were higher than normal, i had reversed the connections on one of the fans. hooked them up correctly and voila, all was fine again.

bill

Scott S · #11 (**permalink**) 07-28-2003, 05:17 AM

This may sound silly but is your water pump turning in the right direction? There are forward and reverse pumps depending on the year.

Scott S

Bill Wells · #12 (**permalink**) 07-28-2003, 05:29 AM

scott..doesnt the pump also turn in reverse with an underdrive pulley ,which he says he has. i thought the pumps have to match the intended pulley, ie, normal v belt turns one way and underdrive the opposite direction ? bill.

fxbill · #13 (**permalink**) 07-28-2003, 06:30 AM

I converted to a serpentine belt system with my 408 and had the same problem with heat spiking...it did in fact turn out to be the pump rotation. I'm running almost 11/1 compression, power (undersized) pulleys and timing pretty far advanced. I've had no problems whatsoever since then. Lower intake radiator hose collapsing under power is another common thing especially with a high volume water pump. Worth checking anyway...

Scott S · #14 (**permalink**) 08-01-2003, 10:45 AM

Did you find the problem?

Scott S

Mr.Fixit · #15 (**permalink**) 08-01-2003, 12:24 PM

SpF cooling systems work great even for really hot motors. Just make sure: thermostat is present and it opening @ 180, have coolant and no big airpockets, correct rotation waterpump, both rad fans are pulling (not one pulling and one pushing), radiator temp sensor for fans is working (you can just plug the two wires together and the fans will run continuosly even without key being on), lower radiator hose is not kinked or sucking itself shut(should have spring in it)

fxbill · #16 (**permalink**) 08-01-2003, 02:29 PM

One other out of the way thought. Have you done any recent work to the engine....like changing manifolds or thermostat housings? Years ago I had some silicone squeeze out from a gasket and get stuck in the water passages......caused me much grief until I finally got it out... I'm sure what you have is something common, but if all else fails you might have to start looking for the not so obvious problems..

RallySnake · #17 (**permalink**) 08-01-2003, 04:19 PM

J.P.

Interesting. Did you possibly see this month's issue of Kit Car magazine? Roscoe wrote a great article in there and went through all the same problems you have. Turns out he had a Cleveland water pump in his Winsor. They look identical and bolt up the same. But they do not work the same. You have to check the part number very carefully.

Paul

MidOHasp · #18 (**permalink**) 08-03-2003, 04:23 PM

Latest update -
First, thank you all for your ideas - many of which I had never thought of.
-Went home for our first ever car show, and my dad was switching out our Bosch Platinums for some Champion C57CX's. Fired it up, blowing white vapor out driver's side pipe and missing. Had visions of a blown head gasket and dumping coolant in the cylinder, but the vapor burned my eyes and throat like Sunoco.
-Started car up at show, no more miss, staying cool, pleased the crowd with fish-tailing burnout through first and second.
-Saturday (day after), topped off coolant, checked tire pressure, went for ride - temp was staying at 160-170, fairly cool day. Driving her easy, turned around on a side street, needle started to climb-FAST. Got behind some cars with more behind me on a road with no berm - as for the first time ever, I watched the needle swing past 280F. I was freaking out. Got home, steam blowing out of the overflow bottle which was toasted.
-Found that we also compromised the gasket between the water pump and its backing plate. Tore off the whole front end and in process of rebuilding everything w/ new gaskets.

**As far as improvements, going to drain out all the anti-freeze 50/50 and replace w/ distilled water and water wetter. Picked up springs to put in the lower hose to avoid collapsing. Would've liked to "hand throttle" it to see if they collapsed, but there's no time to run more "tests" now. Replaced stock stat with Robertshaw unit. Have the overdrive water pulley on, now. What else...I guess that's about it.

I will keep you all posted. For those of you wondering, we definitely have the correct water pump and it's rotating in the right direction. I wish it were as simple as buying a new water pump.

One other thing for those of you still reading and wondering why we had that dramatic trip past 280F - we tried a heavier (20lb) cap and I think it was defective. We dumped out at least a gallon of coolant right before the bad overheat - and this was before the temps were high at all. I don't think the cap was keeping coolant from the overflow.

We need a surge tank bad, otherwise as soon as the fluid expands, it's going right into the overflow bottle.

Thanks again for all your help, hope this "brief" (haha) summary answers some of your questions about what we're doing right/wrong.

Bill Wells · #19 (**permalink**) 08-03-2003, 05:04 PM

best be careful with those high temps as i suspect you have some aluminum heads etc on your car and it will be warpsville at warp speed at those temps. if in doubt about temp rising quickly , shut down early and save the aluminum pieces of that stroker til you figure out your problem . good luck again . bill.

MidOHasp · #20 (**permalink**) 01-06-2004, 01:52 PM

Update everyone -

The guy who dyno'd our motor assured us we didn't need to retorque the heads after running 13 pulls. He was incorrect. After all this messing around, then blowing white steam out the driver's sidepipe, we started exploring some alternative answers.

I removed the driver's bank valve cover to find oil paste. It looked like a frappe of oil and water (or coolant). First thought - blown head gasket. But, I figured - what the hell, check the torques just to be sure, and some of the central bolts were around 30 lb-ft.

Retorqued everything to spec and ever since - cool as anything. Problem solved. Looks like the head gasket seal was compromised but not blown. Correct torque is imperative.

So - moral of the story...well morals...

1) Gotta retorque after a hard day on the dyno (on a fresh engine build at least)

2) It's more fun to drive real real fast when you're not worried about melting the engine.