AFR 185 Heads Upgrade Question?

[bignoze]

Hello, long time lurker, first time poster!

I have a bone stock 351w motor brand new. I want to upgrade the Heads and intake to AFR 185 and a victor jr, will probably add roller rockers too. I have a 650 carb.

I have a Hydraulic high torque flat tappet cam, do I need to replace my cam? Will I have enough duration and lift?

I would like to see how much power this gives me before I would pull the motor.

Thanks,

Bignoze

[Dennis Kelley]

I would change the cam. AFR 185 heads offer some serious flow up to .550 lift. You need a cam that can take advantage of those heads. I don't know about the 351 bottom end you may have to notch the pistons to clear the valves. Take a look at the 165 head also. AFR 165 has a smaller intake valve and is designed to clear most stock bottom end with mild street strip cams. Always check your valve clearance though.

If its just a street car with some drag racing Call a major cam manufacture up and give them you spec and they will recommend a good cam. Comp and Crane are good to start with. I run a Crane 2030 in my 302 and it has a very good idle and makes power all the way to 6000 rpm. High lift and big duration cams kill a low compression motor. A cam thats good for a 302 is usually much milder in the 351 becuse of the extra displacement. get the 58cc heads for the extra compression. Look at the Air Gap Rpm to it may give up a little on the top but its an excellant all around intake. Match you intake, heads and cam as a combination and you will have an excellant performing engine.

Good luck

later Dennis

[bignoze]

So you think the AFR 165 might be a better way to go? What I am really trying to do is add about 85hp to the car. Any other suggestions?

[Dennis Kelley]

What are you going to do with the motor? You should easily gain 75 hp if that 351 W has stock heads on it. what type of pistons are in your shortblock. AFR 165 should meet your goal without any problem but the AFR 185's will allow you to grow into a stroker setup without running out of head. If your just wanting to add 85 hp do the heads cam and intake. AFR 165, Air gap RPM, and a mild cam and your there. Check out fordmuscle.com and on the front page they are testing the AFR 165 on a 347. You can't go wrong with either head but if you plan on stroking in the future get the 185's

later Dennis

[bignoze]

Thanks Dennis. Do you think I can get away with not changing my cam and still gain 85hp? What I was hoping to do was install higher ratio rocker arms to make up for the weak cam, like 1.7. The motor has 4.000" Hypereutectic pistons, which I would not change. I would just like to upgrade the motor with out having to pull it from the car.

[Snakebit]

A while back Muscle Mustang and Fast Fords did a complete test on different heads. I think it was around october through December of last year. I have a set of AFR 185 heads that i will be runing on a stroked 302 to 331 cu in

[Dennis Kelley]

You can problably get away with it but it would be close. Good luck and let us know how it comes out. Baseline it on the dyno and then tune it on the dyno.

later dennis

[Chris Robinson]

Piston to valve clearance will be an issue if you are using stock hyperpathetic pistons. The 185 uses a 2.02 intake valve. This will not fit if its a stock longblock. Better to go with the 165. Although I am sure there are cams out there that it may, but not worth the headache.

[bignoze]

Thanks guys for all the feedback.

Here is what i am planning to do:

1) AFR 165 58cc
2) Roller Rockers 1.72
3) EB Air gap RPM Intake

Any other points of wisdom????

Then see what comes of it I am hoping for 85 to 90 hp.

[Dennis Kelley]

Get a cam its not that much more work. I'm showing 289rwhp and 295 rwtq with a mild cam, AFR 165, rpm air gap(Professional Products knockoff). Why spend 1300.00 on heads and not get all there is to get out of them. Even if money is tight you can find a good OTS cam that will work well with the head.

later Dennis

[Chris Robinson]

I didn't mean not get one all together just one to fit around a 185, one that would cut down on duration and lift, but having said that. I would call Ed Curtis at Flowtech induction. He does a bunch of cams for the 5 litre crowd as well as NMRA pure street. We have installed several and its well worth the extra money. By the way he helped design the AFR head, I would also recommend getting the heads from him as well, as he does a few tricks to clean up the airflow even more..www.flowtechinduction.com

[bignoze]

ok, lets say I was willing to spend 2500 bucks, and looking for the best bang for my buck including labor? Would a set of cheaper heads, cam, intake be better and then I would have the money for the cam job?

[Chris Robinson]

Do it all at once, you will spend double the money on labor if you decide later to install a cam. Its only about an extra 100-200 bucks to install a cam. Besides those heads need to breathe. Save your money, it would be good to install new pushrods that have the correct length in order to have the right valvetrain geometry. I wouldnt go with a cheaper iron head, for one they dont flow as well, and you can run more timing without detonation on an aluminum head.

[bignoze]

See I read this article from carcraft that gave me the idea to go this route. I am just looking to create a very streetable car that has some punch.

Article Carcraft

I would just like to do what they did to the 302 to my 351w.

[Excaliber]

Thats a great top end combination, the heads and intake are exactely what my friend did on his 302 FFR. He also went with the E-303 Ford Motorsports cam, a double pumper Holley and an MSD distributor. REALLY woke up that sleepy EFI motor!

Going with bigger rocker arms vs a bigger cam? Hmmmm,,, thats very interesting and in the end MAY achieve similiar results as far as breathing goes. Rockers certainly cheaper and easier to install. I would think going big rocker arm AND cam could create valve to piston clearance problems.

If you go MSD dist (BIG money) be sure to get the mechanical timing advance model which "looks" indentical to the "computer controlled timing advance model".

[Keithc8]

We have the AFR 165 AND 185 heads in stock and do them for the camshaft the customer will be running. I would go with the 185 heads, hydraulic roller camshaft and lifters, you will need pushrods, Scorpion roller rockers and a Edelbrock Performer RPM intake instead of the Victor Jr. This package should give you about 80 to 100HP depending on the car being tuned right. I could supply the complete package for 1995.00 and we have done plenty of similiar packages before. Good luck, Keith Craft

[Chris Robinson]

So you are saying the 185 would work with stock valve reliefs in the pistons...??

[Keithc8]

When you say brand new 351W with stock pistons, do you know what piston it has. If you could find out it would help. There may be a part number on the piston. The piston to valve clearance I feel would need to be checked with either head. The AFR heads have the piston closer to the deck than most heads and this puts the valve closer to the piston. I will try to help anyway I can. Good luck, Keith Craft

[bignoze]

Keith just your standard 4.000" Hypereutectic pistons. And I am trying to avoid replacing my cam by using higher ratio rockers?