Any 351 Cleveland guys out there - need to ID block and heads

[767Jockey]

I take posession today of my Contemporary Cobra with a 351 Cleveland in it. Neither I nor the owner knows ANYTHING at all about the engine. I guess the logical place to start is with block and head numbers. Where do I find these on the heads and block? If I remove the oil pan (the engine is coming out of the car as soon as I get it) is there usually any identifying numbers on the insides of the pistons? If not, I won't even bother removong the pan, as the most I'll do to this engine is a cam change. Are the cam identifying numbers (either factory or aftermarket) usually on the front of the cam, or will I normally need to remove the cam completely to get an ID on it? Thanks.
Doug

[Tony Aprile]

Doug...Unless someone can come up with a way to identify the Cleveland from a 400 or 351M, I know there are books of that nature at S&K on 109..

[mrmustang]

Doug,

First thing you need to do is drop the starter (or get a flashlight and a mirror) and get the casting number off the block, then the heads and post them here. Secondary to that, you need to check the bolt pattern for the bellhousing/scattershield as the 351C and 351/400M use a different pattern, the 351M/460 being the same as a 460......

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Tony Aprile

Doug...Unless someone can come up with a way to identify the Cleveland from a 400 or 351M, I know there are books of that nature at S&K on 109..

Tony,
Is S&K still open? Jeez, I haven't been there in over 25 years. I'll have to stop in. Are you home form Fla. yet?

[Tony Aprile]

I got back Friday, go back to work tomorrow !!

[trularin]

Doug, why are you pulling the engine?

If you are, then yank it first, then get the numbers.

There are a few mods you may want to do if you are going to keep the engine.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by trularin

Doug, why are you pulling the engine?

If you are, then yank it first, then get the numbers.

There are a few mods you may want to do if you are going to keep the engine.

I'm pulling it primarily becaue I have no idea what's inside of it, and I have to change the trans anyway, so I might as well start fresh. The car was cosmetically neglected, so having the engine bay empty will allow me to spend lots of time sprucing things up in there as well.

The good news is I got the car today, finally. The deal is complete, the car is home and it's mine. Finally. Now for the bad news. My trusty floor jack of so many years died on the third pump as I tried to life the car. Therefore, no block numbers. That's ok, I want to do a compression check anyway to see what shape the rings are in.

All I have so far about the engine is this:
Carb = Holley 4bbl, vac sec., elec choke. Numbers on carb horn are: LIST-6919 below that line is:0952. Anyone know what size carb this is? The engine runs like hell now, stumbling and such - is this carb worth rebuilding, assuming it's the carb?

Edelbrock intake is F351 2V. As soon as I saw the 2V I assume that the heads are 2V heads. Does that sound right to you guys? Are 2V heads bad? How much do they limit the power I can make? Does it even pay to put a cam in here?

It has a MSD distributor and box - that's good news. I'll get the block and head numbers out after I scrounge up a new jack. Lastly, probably a silly question, but exactly how does an electric choke work? I've never had one. Does it just generate heat on it's own and gradually open the choke plate? How do you check if it's working? How do you fix it if it doesn't? I think if I keep this carb I'll just replace it with a manual choke - does that sound like a good idea? Thanks.
Doug

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Doug,

First thing you need to do is drop the starter (or get a flashlight and a mirror) and get the casting number off the block, then the heads and post them here. Secondary to that, you need to check the bolt pattern for the bellhousing/scattershield as the 351C and 351/400M use a different pattern, the 351M/460 being the same as a 460......

All I have so far is the bolt pattern on the bellhousing. There appears to be 6 total. Two are in a line across the top, I'm guessing about 6 inches apart. There are two running down each side of the block from the top two. The passengers side bottom bolt is just above the starter. Please tell me this is a Cleveland and not a M engine. Please........
Block and head numbers to follow after I source a new jack.

[ccx1984]

check the top of the engine block back of the drivers side head, there is a number stamped on the block, should start with a H. I have a contempory with a 1981 chassie number and a 351 cleveland with a borg warner T-10.give me a call (985)643-5851 i might have some info you could use.found my ccx in jacksonville, fla. 4/06.

[Woodz428]

Well you DO have a 351C, because the intake you mentioned only works on a Cleveland, not a 351M or 400. A 2V intake can be used on 4V heads, but isn't as effective. You can tell what heads you have by looking at the upper corner and see the number there. Unless some 351M or 400 heads have been used( they fit) it should have either a 2 or 4 for the kind of head it is.Someone familiar with the engine can also look at the exhaust flange and see the differences that would distinguish the 2. If there is no 2 or 4 in the upper corner of the head,by the intake and above the valve cover, it would be safe to assume they are later heads and only the 2v type.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Woodz428

Well you DO have a 351C, because the intake you mentioned only works on a Cleveland, not a 351M or 400. A 2V intake can be used on 4V heads, but isn't as effective. You can tell what heads you have by looking at the upper corner and see the number there. Unless some 351M or 400 heads have been used( they fit) it should have either a 2 or 4 for the kind of head it is.Someone familiar with the engine can also look at the exhaust flange and see the differences that would distinguish the 2. If there is no 2 or 4 in the upper corner of the head,by the intake and above the valve cover, it would be safe to assume they are later heads and only the 2v type.

Yeah, unfortunately I found a 2, clear as day. I guess the engines a slug, no? Is there any hope for this one, or shold I just run it as is until I can afford a better one? What do you guys think - what's the potential power output for this engine? Are any of you running a 2V? I'm bummed.

[trularin]

IMHO it is not a slug, but then again, that's my opinion.

[767Jockey]

I've gotten some great replies and I'm encouraged that I can get some useful horsepower from this engine without spending a fortune. Thanks, guys.

[55312]

I'm just an impartial observer here but I'm dumbfounded by your skepticism on this engine. The Cleveland has a very storied history and is a GREAT engine design. You can get a ton of horsepower out of this motor and have something fairly unique and very servicable. Look into the "Clevor" conversion with the Australian 2v heads or match a cam and intake to the 4v heads. This motor breaths like a true big block and if I were to build another motor, other than an FE, it would be a Cleveland! All those Panteras weren't slugs!

Tim

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by 55312

I'm just an impartial observer here but I'm dumbfounded by your skepticism on this engine. The Cleveland has a very storied history and is a GREAT engine design. You can get a ton of horsepower out of this motor and have something fairly unique and very servicable. Look into the "Clevor" conversion with the Australian 2v heads or match a cam and intake to the 4v heads. This motor breaths like a true big block and if I were to build another motor, other than an FE, it would be a Cleveland! All those Panteras weren't slugs!

Tim

A Clevor is Cleveland heads on a Windsor block, aka "aftermarket" Boss 302 type motor. IMO, that's the best small block setup, but expensive to build and hard to find intakes anymore.

Doug, don't sweat the 2V heads. You WANT the 2V heads. The 4V heads are too much for a street driven car.

A 351C is basically like a mini-460, with the same canted valve head configuration. They are great motors. The reason they never because as popular as other Ford motors, is because they needed a lot of work to spin them hard, because of their unique main size. That's what made the Boss 302 a killer motor- high winding Windsor short block, with crazy Cleveland heads.

If you want to talk to someone local about Clevelands, talk to Jeff Lawrence (Lawrence Racing Engines). He's a Cleveland nut, and runs low 9s with a Cleveland in a Fox body Mustang in NHRA stock class.

[55312]

Sal - your right. Mea Culpa on the Cleavor. Still a good motor though.

Tim

[AK1234]

Clevor motors are the best combination of Ford Small block on the market as the NASCAR motors are based on the that combination. There are so many parts made by both factory and after market .. and still Edlebrock makes a great intake for this combo new. At present I'm building a 377 Stroker which is a W block and C heads .. conservatively this motor will make 600hp.

The C motor you speak about with 2V heads is a good motor and the F351 intake is also a good intake. If you do the research most of the high horsepower heads appear to be using smaller ports more like the 2v heads.
There a lot of talk about oiling problems on the C motor ... I guess if your racing ot at 7000 rpm. There is poeple who can get 500hp out of a C with Ci intake and Ci exhaust manifolds. There was a builder in Hemmings last year.

There were also a heavy duty block called an XE block made for a C ... and theres talk on the Pantera site that someone is casting a HD block aftermarket C block.

Hope this helps .. you have agood motor and theres a lot of parts available for it.

Ron

[767Jockey]

Guys, You're right, without a doubt. I was bummed due to my ignorance of the 2V heads. I thought that meant that the engine was destined to be Dad's station wagon propulsion. I was obviously wrong, thanks to all the great info I got from you guys and so many others. My plans for the Cleveland are fairly short term - one day I still want an FE. Until then, I'll be running the Cleveland. I'm pulling it out later this week in order to prep the engine bay and swap out the automatic for a stick. Mr. Mustang has graciously offered to ID the block and heads for me to see exactly what it is I'm dealing with. (Thanks again, Bill) The biggest hurdle I see is finding a Contemporary pedal box that has a clutch pedal. Any ideas, guys? My gas pedal is seperate, not in the same box - I need to find an overhead pedal box with a brake and clutch pedal. Any ideas? This is by far my biggest concern on the project.

After I pull the engine I'll take off the oil pan, timing cover and intake, and try to determing as best I can what I have. I don't want to spend a alot on this thing, seeing that it's not my long term engine. I may throw a cam in it and a new carb, that's about it. Anything you guys think I should do while I'm in there that won't cost a bunch of money? It has good oil pressure now, should I throw in a oil pump anyway, or is that a waste of money? Are there significantly better pumps out there than Ford put in? The rear main doesn't appear to be leaking - I'm inclined to let it be. Any other quick ideas while I have it out? Again, thanks for all the input. It takes us old Chevy guys more time to learn the Ford way.

[autoxmike]

I have a 408 CI Clevor that my brother built circa 1993. Here is some interesting Cleveland head data from my archives. Hopefully it will be easy to read when I paste it into this message:

Cleveland Head FYI
------------------
Production cast iron Cleveland style heads have several different combustion chamber, valve, and port sizes. Closed chamber refers to the smaller volume heads and the 4V refers to the heads with larger ports and valves that originally came on cars with 4V carbs. There are also aftermarket SVO aluminum heads (C302, Yates) which bolt onto Cleveland blocks but have non-stock intake and exhaust port locations, requiring special manifolds.

Chamber Int/Exh Intake Exhaust Notes Casting
Volume Valve Dia Port Port Numbers
CC's inches inches inches


Boss 302W
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1969 61.3-64.3 2.23/1.71 1.75x2.50 1.74x2.00 2,3,8
1970 57.0-60.0 2.19/1.71 1.75x2.50 1.74x2.00 2,3,8

Boss 351C
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1971 66.1 2.19/1.71 1.75x2.50 1.74x2.00 2,8 D1ZE-B

351C 4V
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
70-71 62.8 2.19/1.71 1.75x2.50 1.74x2.00 1,8 DOAE-H,R
71 CJ 75.4 2.19/1.17 1.75x2.50 1.74x2.00 1,9 D1ZE-DA
72 HO 75.4 2.19/1.71 1.75x2.50 1.74x2.00 2,9,10 D2ZE-A
72-74 76.2 2.19/1.71 1.75x2.50 1.74x2.00 1,4,9 D1ZE-GA

351C 2V
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
70-74 US 76.2 2.04/1.65 1.40x2.02 1.38x1.84 1,5 DOAE-E,J; DOAZ-A,B,D; D1ZE-CB; D1AE

351M/400
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
75-82 78.4 2.04/1.65 1.40x2.02 1.38x1.84 1,7 D5AE-AA; D5AZ
71-74 78.4 2.04/1.65 1.40x2.02 1.38x1.84 1,7 D1AE-A; D3AE-G2B

Aussie 2V
----------------------------------------------------------------
Aussie 2V 62.0 2.04/1.65 6,8
Aussie 2V 78 2.04/1.65 9,11



Notes:
1. Non-adjustable, cap screw with 5/16 inch bolt, pedestal rockers, non-hardened pushrods, multi-groove valves
2. Adjustable, 7/16 inch screw-in studs, guideplates, hardened pushrods, single groove valves
3. has intake manifold water thermostat passages to match 302W block
4. open-type combustion chamber and induction hardened exhaust valve seats, otherwise same as early 4V
5. Nearly identical to 351M/400 heads, oval exhaust ports
6. used on Australian 302C and 351C, fits US 2V intake and exhaust manifolds, rumored to have a slightly larger (10%) intake port, combustion chamber shape may be different that U.S. 4V closed chamber so pop-up pistons meant for 4V heads may not fit with clearancing
7. May have an additional EGR passage, otherwise nearly identical to US 351C 2V, oval exhaust ports
8. Closed chamber
9. Open chamber
10. open-type combustion chambers otherwise same as 71 Boss 351
11. Used on later Pantera 351C's which were sourced from Australia (probably originally meant for Australian truck applications), heads appear to be the same as U.S. 2V open chamber items.



Miscellaneous:
There are two major differences between the open chamber 2V and closed chamber 4V heads. First is the ports. The 4V heads have good intake ports and horrible exhaust ports. The 2V intakes flow almost as much, with considerably higher velocity, and have much better exhausts. The flow balance across the ports dramatically affects the engine's camshaft requirements.



The second difference is the combustion chamber shape. The open chamber head burns well, has low emissions, and is reasonably resistant to detonation at low (under 10:1) compression ratios. The closed chamber (also known as quench chambers) heads are more sensitive to octane, but the shorter flame path helps reduce required spark lead and makes more power. The fuel and timing requirements for open and closed chamber heads are much different. David Vizard claims open chamber heads respond well to multiple spark ignitions (e.g. MSD 6), requiring less ignition lead.

[autoxmike]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Yeah, unfortunately I found a 2, clear as day. I guess the engines a slug, no? Is there any hope for this one, or shold I just run it as is until I can afford a better one? What do you guys think - what's the potential power output for this engine? Are any of you running a 2V? I'm bummed.

Nuthin' wrong with 2V heads. I have almost stock 2V heads on my Clevor - mainly aftermarket roller rockers, studs, etc. but no porting thta I know of. Putting Cleveland head son on a Windsor block was doen beacuse teh Cleveland block is considered to be stronger, while the Cleveland heads are better than any stock Windsor heads and many aftermarket Windsor heads as well.

For lotsa Cleveland info from Cleveland phanatics check out this site:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/