Why isn't the 351C more popular in Cobras?

767Jockey · #1 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 02:01 PM

I just bought a Contemporary Classic Cobra with a 351C. The car is in rough shape and I'm just starting a complete restoration of it. I've been starting to think about what engine will end up in it and the more research I do the more clear it becomes that the 351C is an almost perfect engine for the Cobra. It has all the size and weight benefits of the 351W/302 engines, with the power potential of the FE's due to the Boss type canted valve Big Block style heads. It's not difficult nor terribly expensive to stroke a 351C to 408 cu. in. , and a power output of 650+ HP is not terribly difficult nor uncommon. It can be done on pump gas easily without crazy mods or a difficult to live with engine. While they're not as common as Windsor based engines, they're certainly not rare nor difficult to find. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I'm not trying to flame the silly small block / big block wars. It's just seems that the Cleveland is essentially the best of both worlds. The block is undoubtedly a small block, while the canted valve huge port heads are doubtlessly big block heads. If originality is your thing, there's no substitute for an FE, hands down. For cost effective power, light weight and the combined benefits of both, the Cleveland seems unbeatable. Ideas, folks?

Excaliber · #2 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 02:24 PM

I recall when the 351W came out it was mostly snickerd at and not taken seriously. If you wanted real power, the 351C was clearly the best choice.

So whats changed? It took YEARS for research and development to become more common place for the 351W to get decent power out of it at a reasonable cost. Whereas the 351C faded away, without any real world engine developement work done (as with the W engines).

Today it's just easier, cheaper to build a W to respectable levels than it is to build a C. I have GREAT respect for the Clevland and am always pleasently surprised when I see one. Go for it!

Woodz428 · #3 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 02:32 PM

As Excalibur said, it is basically not supported by the aftermarket as the W is. It isn't as easy to get headers and then the choice of heads is limited and expensive. I enjoy the engines and use them in my Deuce as well as some of my Mustangs. But I have a collection of parts that I've gathered up since the early 70s.

RACER X #99 · #4 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 03:23 PM

If you not going racing than the Cleveland is a good choice. Enough power for the street and looks good sitting in a Cobra.

767Jockey · #5 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RACER X #99

If you not going racing than the Cleveland is a good choice. Enough power for the street and looks good sitting in a Cobra.

Roger,
Why "If you're not going racing"? I guess that's what I don't get. Obviously I'm missing something. Is it just the cost and availability of parts? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. I can go out and get a set of extreme Windsor heads for "X" amount of dollars. At the end of the day I can get heads of equal or less cost mid level heads for the Cleveland, and they'll flow as much and probably more than the Windsor heads. Given that any engine is a glorified air pump, with more air in and more air out equaling more power, I doubt that without spending exorbitant amounts of money you'll find Windsor heads that will flow even what a mid level set of Cleveland heads will flow. I'm not trying to belabor the point here. I just can't see Windsors putting out what an equally prepped Cleveland can. What am I missing?

Doug I · #6 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 04:36 PM

I've decided that mine'll be C powered.

490 crank HP for ~$7000 compared to 460 for 7500 and 495 for 8500 from a windsor

Tim Brewer · #7 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 04:47 PM

A Cleavland of the same displacement of a Windsor will out perform the Windsor, everytime.

Doug I · #8 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 05:00 PM

I think the windsor may be a little better in the bottom half of the rev range but when the C gets on its cam and starts to flow anyone with a windsor better hold onto their doorhandles.

I heard that a C can swallow a tennis ball while a W chokes on a marble.

Jim Barnett · #9 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 05:15 PM

The "C" in my LAE really performs and LOOKS WAY better than the smaller 351W sitting in the engine bay (fills it up more

) IMO.

NeuroToxin · #10 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 05:36 PM

I've been studying engines too (I am still a few years out from beginning a build) and I have to say, the 351C is really sounding interesting. I respect the 351W and all it has to offer, but I have been thinking in the back of my mind that if I ever have to actually deny having a 427 or 428 then it would be more cool to be able to say I have a 351 Cleveland rather than a 351 Windsor. I have NOT seen a picture of one sitting in a cobra, does anybody have this pic?

Southern Automotive has a 408 stroked 351C offered for 6900 bucks as opposed to a 408 stroked 351W at 7500 bucks. It is also claiming 30 more horses.

I'd like to see what a nice setup looks like in a car. Also, what does it sound like?

trularin · #11 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 05:56 PM

I get good Rs out of the Cleveland. Build a bunch of different engines, always liked the Bud Moore NASCAR 351C. So, that's bascially what I did.

Fords in general are a bit more expensive to build than chevy.

767Jockey · #12 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeuroToxin

I've been studying engines too (I am still a few years out from beginning a build) and I have to say, the 351C is really sounding interesting. I respect the 351W and all it has to offer, but I have been thinking in the back of my mind that if I ever have to actually deny having a 427 or 428 then it would be more cool to be able to say I have a 351 Cleveland rather than a 351 Windsor. I have NOT seen a picture of one sitting in a cobra, does anybody have this pic?

Southern Automotive has a 408 stroked 351C offered for 6900 bucks as opposed to a 408 stroked 351W at 7500 bucks. It is also claiming 30 more horses.

I'd like to see what a nice setup looks like in a car. Also, what does it sound like?

Neuro,
Look in my gallery, there are pics from the day I brought my basket case home. The engine is was filthy, but you'll get an idea of what a dirty, poorly equipped 351C looks like sitting in a Cobra engine bay. Needless to say that it'll look MUCH different when I'm done.

RACER X #99 · #13 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 06:26 PM

Doug,
Cleveland heads suffer from what a lot of Ford heads suffer from, large intake ports but lousy exhaust ports. You gotta get the exhaust out before you can let the fuel in. The brand X guys figured this out back in 1955 I'm not sure if Ford has figured it out yet. Todays Windsor heads have a better combination of Intake and exhaust ports.
Of Course the Yates Cleveland heads are great but I don't think your planning on that expense.

RD

1985 CCX · #14 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 06:28 PM

NeuroToxin,

Boss 351C in mine, there are pics on page 9 of my agllery.

Doug I think your car is going to be a great one when done. I like the 408ci thing, would really make it fly. I have also spoken with Nick regarding the roll bars and brake bracket. Give me a call...

Jeff

trularin · #15 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 06:37 PM

Here's mine:

767Jockey · #16 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 06:45 PM

Hey, Jeff!
I was thinking that you'd chime in on this thread sooner or later.

If anyone wants to see what a really nice 351C looks like check out Jeff's gallery. That's a real Boss 351C in there looking back at you. I'll call you probably Wednesday - I'm in Cancun (I know - tough way to make a living) Monday and Tuesday. If you want feel free to give me a call today or tomorrow - we're not doing anything this weekend.

Roger,
Yates are not the only good Cleveland heads out there anymore. The CHI heads get rave reviews. I can get a pair fully ported with all new valves, springs, etc. for about $2500. The flow rates are phenomenal, even on the exhaust side. I can allegedly do a Cleveland 408 stroker with 600+ H.P. for just about $10K. I'm looking into it further as we speak, and if it all checks out I'll let you know what the details are. Compare the price and power to a Roush 427, and there's no comparison. Right now one of the sticking points is finding an intake that makes really good power, yet fits under the stock Cobra hood. As long as we're on the subject, and of you Cleveland guys have any ideas on that?

cobrabobby · #17 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 08:24 PM

767 Jockey,
If you are looking for the best intake that probably will clear
a stock Cobra hood, look at a dual plane Blue Thunder intake.
The Aussies have been getting the most out of the Clevelands
for years because they produced the 335 series long after it
died here in 73-74. Jon Kasse won the Engine Masters with
a CHI headed Cleveland recently, and I believe they dominated
just last year. Lots of recent performance parts have been
introduced both here and from Down Under. Great potential but
stock 4V heads, if you don't know a correct combo, will yield great
top end power but suffers on the low end. But in a light car such
as a Cobra, it doesn't matter much. Or, you could build a "Clevor",
a Windsor low end with Cleveland heads, which essentially are a
bolt on. Problem is finding a suitable intake. Good luck and Clevelands
are a "dare to be different" sort of thing. Go for it!!
Bob T.

Jim Barnett · #18 (**permalink**) 02-24-2007, 09:10 PM

One drawback on the "C" is those hard to find CS SHELBY lettered aluminum VALVE COVERS! Sure glad I was finally able to find a nice set thanks to a CC member!! NOW, IF I were going to keep my Cobra, I'd be after those GREAT looking WEBERS!!

WildBill3 · #19 (**permalink**) 02-25-2007, 04:04 AM

racer x you hit the nail right on thats whats up my cuz drove a ford late model here at i70 speedway he ended up runing aussy clevland heads because we were stuck running (factory) stle heads and they flowed better than US heads .he ended up winning the class at 2 different tracks it was a good setup but aftermarket stuff nowdays is so much better we run brodox track 1 heads on the 408w and ther great we put out 900 for the heads plus got the benifits of lower weight and better cooling ,but hey have fun with it we did..Bill

RThig · #20 (**permalink**) 02-25-2007, 06:28 AM

The Windsor has a taller deck height than the Cleveland (9.5" vs. 9.2") so it's easier to package a stroker kit and you can go bigger on the Windsor. Canted valve heads are a better design, especially the newer aftermarket versions. The hot setup for the last Engine Masters Challenge was the "Clevor" with a Windsor style shortblock and the CHI Cleveland style heads.

I believe the main reason you see more Windors is that they had a longer production run and there's just more of them out there. The fact that they share a few pieces with the small blocks also helps with the aftermarket parts availability.

I think either engine looks great in a Cobra and infinitely better that any brand X motor!