Ordered a Superformance Cobra, trying to make some decisions.

[Detroit Bill]

My son and I are going to visit Barry Rabotnick at Survival Motorsports tomorrow. That should be fun and interesting. It is about an hour away from home so not a big deal. Still planning a 482 FE but suddenly allowing the possibility of a 460 big block. More power for near half the price?

Not original but tons of reliable power "cheap". This is a way to knock several thousand off the car. Current thoughts are go with the FE.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

Not original but tons of reliable power "cheap". This is a way to knock several thousand off the car. Current thoughts are go with the FE.

Yes, it's cheaper. It's better than a SBF. It's better than a non-Ford engine. But a lot of people would not buy your car with it in there.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Yes, it's cheaper. It's better than a SBF. It's better than a non-Ford engine. But a lot of people would not buy your car with it in there.

I'm one of those fickle people.

I remember going to take a look at a used Kirkham that the seller had originally installed a 460 in. The seller was unable to sell his Kirkham with the 460, so he removed the 460, installed an FE, and then sold it. Also, at least in the Kirkham, one of the cross-members had to be "clearanced" to install the 460.

[Detroit Bill]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm one of those fickle people.

I remember going to take a look at a used Kirkham that the seller had originally installed a 460 in. The seller was unable to sell his Kirkham with the 460, so he removed the 460, installed an FE, and then sold it. Also, at least in the Kirkham, one of the cross-members had to be "clearanced" to install the 460.

I am also, as I was looking all small blocks and 460 based motors were passed over quickly. BUT I also skipped by a lot of iron FE's. Most happened to be built by Southern. I don't do things for resale, I do them for me but in this case I think it is for me. I like the look of the FE with the old school Chrome Pentroof valve covers. That's the look that floats my boat. If I was doing this for resale I would not do it! Hopefully I don't find the need to sell it anytime soon.

[patrickt]

How much cheaper is a 460 than an FE?

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

My son and I are going to visit Barry Rabotnick at Survival Motorsports tomorrow. That should be fun and interesting. It is about an hour away from home so not a big deal. Still planning a 482 FE but suddenly allowing the possibility of a 460 big block. More power for near half the price?

Not original but tons of reliable power "cheap". This is a way to knock several thousand off the car. Current thoughts are go with the FE.

If you live THAT close to survival... You SHOULD spend your money there...
You have NO reason in my mind to go anywhere else.

Barry could build you a 390 FE stroked to 445 cubes could easily Meet your hp desires which would save you those up front costs that your seemingly after.

That way you could have the best compromise fulfilling all your desires, with scope of having Barry later "upgrade" you to a 482 by using an aluminium pond block and building a short block using most the same parts you used from the 390

Cheap FE, cheap power, authentic looks, and scope for upgrade to what your heart seemingly really desires - a 482 in all aluminium!!!

That would be my play, if I were in your shoes.

Good luck and enjoy.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

That way you could have the best compromise fulfilling all your desires, with scope of having Barry later "upgrade" you to a 482 by using an aluminium pond block and building a short block using most the same parts you used from the 390

Cheap FE, cheap power, authentic looks, and scope for upgrade to what your heart seemingly really desires - a 482 in all aluminium!!!

I'm not an engine builder, but I'd check on this first. I don't think much of anything can be used when you upgrade from the 390/428 (faux FE) architecture to a Pond 427/482 (sideoiler). At the very least, the rings, pistons, heads/valves, rockers, cam, intake and carb would have to be changed. However, everyone will correct me if I'm wrong.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm not an engine builder, but I'd check on this first. I don't think much of anything can be used when you upgrade from the 390/428 (faux FE) architecture to a Pond 427/482 (sideoiler). At the very least, the rings, pistons, heads/valves, rockers, cam, intake and carb would have to be changed. However, everyone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Unless I'm mistaken Barry has a set of heads that fit both 390 and 427 bore sizing, so valvez and valve train would be mostly ok.

Crank & rods could be recycled. As could intake, ignition & distributor, other miscellaneous parts like alternator, pulleys, Oil, water & fuel pumps lines pans... etc... All reusable Id have thought. No?
One could spec a carb that would accommodate both (with jetting changes), like a QF 700 or similar.

Pistons and rings, would need changing.

Brent and Barry would certainly know.

But seemingly an upfront saving of about $5k block.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Dimis

But seemingly an upfront saving of about $5k block.

But he doesn't care about an FE block, and he says he's never going to sell the car. So why should he put in an FE just to make us all happy?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

But he doesn't care about an FE block, and he says he's never going to sell the car. So why should he put in an FE just to make us all happy?

Well, if he really never wants to sell his car, then he should also have it painted beige.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Well, if he really never wants to sell his car, then he should also have it painted beige.

Well you're obviously quite full of yourself today.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Unless I'm mistaken Barry has a set of heads that fit both 390 and 427 bore sizing. Crank & rods could be recycled. As could intake, ignition & distributor, other miscellaneous parts like alternator, pulleys, Oil, water & fuel pumps lines pans... etc... All reusable Id have thought. No?
One could spec a carb that would accommodate both (with jetting changes), like a QF 700 or similar.

Pistons and rings, I defer to the pros...

But seemingly an upfront saving of about $5k block.

You would use the same carb, heads, intake, cranks & rods from a 390 on a 482 build? First and foremost that's an additional 92 cubic inches and second I don't think alot of those parts even fit on both engines.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by patrickt

But he doesn't care about an FE block, and he says he's never going to sell the car. So why should he put in an FE just to make us all happy?

He wants an FE, whether he knows it or Not

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You would use the same carb, heads, intake, cranks & rods from a 390 on a 482 build? First and foremost that's an additional 92 cubic inches and second I don't think alot of those parts even fit on both engines.

A SCAT rotating assembly is a SCAT rotating assembly.
And humbly if I may, your maths on cubic inches is out
445 vs 482 - I got me a mere 37 cubes.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Dimis

He wants an FE, whether he knows it or Not

I tried to tell him that... but all he did was get snippy....

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

He wants an FE, whether he knows it or Not


A SCAT rotating assembly is a SCAT rotating assembly.
And humbly if I may, your maths on cubic inches is out
445 vs 482 - I got me a mere 37 cubes.

I've actually lost track of what Detroit Bill is thinking about, but if it's the same FE stroke, probably those parts could be reused, but a Pond aluminum side-oiler block is different than a production 390 block.

To me, a 445 is a throwaway engine. I mean, really, why bother with that POS. I'd just get the Pond 482 to start.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Barry could build you a 390 FE stroked to 445 cubes could easily Meet your hp desires which would save you those up front costs that your seemingly after.

Detroit Bill: I see Brent has the 390-based 431/445 on his Web site at $13,350 (Lykins Motorsports, LLC). That seems competitive with the 385 and a bunch less money than the Pond block, while providing the authenticity of an FE. Win/Win!!

The closest I could find on Brent's dyno pages to the above engine was this:
487 ci FE, 536 hp @ 6000, 583 lb-ft. 4.270 x 4.250, Scat cast crankshaft, Scat H-beam rods, Diamond pistons, 10.5:1. Comp Cams hydraulic roller, 245/248 @ .050", .634"/.634" lift, 110 LSA. Edelbrock RPM heads with competition valve job, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, Quick Fuel BD-850 carburetor. Stuska dyno.

So, then 487 FE has a bit bigger bore and displacement, but same crank and stroke and, as near as I can tell, pretty much the same components. Knock off a bit for the CI and the 431/445 still looks like it's just shy of 500 HP - well over the 400 HP that's supposedly 'usable' on street cars.

Rather than speculating - let's ask the builder.

Brent: What does the 390-based 431/445 typically pull on the dyno?

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

Rather than speculating - let's ask the builder.

Brent: What does the 390-based 431/445 typically pull on the dyno?

Truth is that's going to depend the Dyno.

[blykins]

482's with CNC ported heads and a well-chosen camshaft will make around 550-575 hp here.

431's-445's with CNC ported heads will go about 500-525 hp.

The 487 that you pulled off my website was for a customer out of Canada. He supplied his own cylinder heads, which were basically out-of-the-box Edelbrock heads. We just did a valve job to clean them up and bolted them on.