Flat Tappet Cam Break-in Lube

[Snakebit]

Flat tappet all the way! I just hate the thought of one of those roller lifters comming apart and needle bearings circulating all through the engine!

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Anybody that puts a hydraulic cam in an FE-equipped Cobra is just a big, fat puss_.

Yea, what he said.

[patrickt]

Anyone that has a fear of solid flat tappet cams should post that concern here: http://theonlythingtofearisfearitself.blogspot.com/

[blykins]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Brent, how many times have I written that I don't understand why everybody doesn't use a solid flat tappet cam? Yes, you have to break it in, but once you're past that and you get a thousand miles on it then it's going to last longer than you are. With a high quality roller rocker set-up you lash it once a year... if that. Just use a good ZDDP oil. C'mon, how hard is that? And you get the benefit of that wonderful flat tappet sound and the hi-revs. Anybody that puts a hydraulic cam in an FE-equipped Cobra is just a big, fat puss_.

You may get lucky, but if you put out a number of engines a year, you stay away from those piece of crap cams.

Ask Keith Craft, Barry Rabotnick and some of the other professional builders why they dread it when someone wants a flat tappet.

You can write it until you're blue in the face, but one day you'll wipe one down too. Every builder I talk to steers away from them now....even with break in springs, Brad Penn or Gibbs break in oil, low ratio rocker arms, etc. You can't guarantee that you'll have a successful break-in every time.

For just a couple hundred dollars more, you can guarantee that you won't have any break in issues. A couple hundred now, with better lobes and more power, or a couple thousand later on when your cam lobes flatten and scatter metal shavings throughout your engine.

Hydraulic rollers will run 100000 miles without worry.

Solid rollers are a little more risky because of the lash, but if you have pressure fed lifters and keep the idle speed up, they'll last and last.

I've never put a flat tappet cam in a customer's engine, or any of mine for that matter....and I never will.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Ask Keith Craft, Barry Rabotnick and some of the other professional builders why they dread it when someone wants a flat tappet.

Balderdash. My response to them is simply this: "Do your best on the break-in of my solid flat tappet. If for some reason it fails, I will assume the risk for your failure." I doubt they would have any problem with that. I'll repeat it once more -- "Real Men Run Solid Flat Tappets -- Only Pus*ies Run Hydraulic Cams in their FEs."

[blykins]

Do you honestly think that their nerves automatically are eased when you say, "Don't worry about it...I'll assume risk." ? Trust me....anyone that caters to customers doesn't want that anymore than the next guy.

Flat tappet cams are antiquated. And I still don't see any reason whatsoever to use something that comes with such a high rate of failure.

Also, to base such a strong opinion (to the point of name calling) on just a clicking sound is rather childish. Actually name calling is quite childish too.

Your engine with a hydraulic roller would make more power, have less maintenance, and would carry no risk on an initial break in.

If you ever build another engine, I honestly hope you have good luck with it. I hate to see anyone have to do an entire rebuild because they skimped on $200-300 up front.

You can repeat your little phase all you want. No one's listening.

[Michael C Henry]

As I undersrand it the roller lifters in an FE were a short lived thing, that may have changed. Some things would have to be changed in the oil plumbing on my sideoiler block. Also I heard a 6,000 rpm limit for hydraulic roller lifters. I currently have my rev limiter in my Mallory HyFire VI box programed to 6,000rpm. As it is, it gets there so quickly that I forget to shift until it stumbles against the limiter.

[blykins]

Michael,

Roller lifters are very prevalent in FE's. I would venture to say that the majority of Keith Craft's street motors are hydraulic rollers and his race motors are solid rollers.

I think that 6000 rpm is a good cap for hydraulic roller camshafts, but most street motors that are meant to have torque and low/mid range manners don't need to be revving any higher anyway.

[Michael C Henry]

What has changed to increase the life span of the roller lifters in FEs? I've heard stories of the 15,000 mile life span, remove and rebiuld or change out or else a mess. And the horror stories of the distributor gear conflict? I have a standard stroke Iron block sideoile with lemans rods with the ARP rod bolts. Allthough I don't use it I have rpm potential above 6,000 rpm. I have the Dove Canadian Super Cobra Jet heads and Tunnel Wedge intake manifold. Cam, heads, lifters intake, carbs, valves & spring all matched parts for high rpm range performance. I don't have the opertunity or nerve to keep my foot into it that long. My Cobra replica was built in Reno and competed in the Virginia City Hill Climb for several years. It is a different car with unusual equipment and inovasions that I haven't seen anywhere else. And the best thing its over the twenty five years old putting it outside emission testing. It's was a race car it can be driven on the street but I like to choose when and where. I know it doesn't do slow well. Stop and go are a killer something it doesn't like is climbing on trailers or climbing ramps in parking garages from stopped.

[blykins]

I think you may be thinking about the stories circulating about solid roller lifters. I don't recall that there were any issues about hydraulic roller lifters at all.

A few years back, the solid roller lifters were not pressure fed, so they had to be examined and rebuilt on a regular basis. The valve lash really put a shock load on the bearings and with no oil to them, they would wear quickly.

Now, Comp has their pressure fed lifters, and there are lots of other brands that will work as well...Crower, Isky, etc.

As for distributor gears, you just up the correct material with the camshaft gear material.

[bobcowan]

Copied from: http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html#Z5

Clearly, the new CJ-4 has less wear additives than the CI-4, by 25-30%

------------------------------
What motor oils had the 0.12% levels of zinc and phosphorus recommended?
The current API standard is SM, and calls for 0.06-0.08% Zn and P.

Here are the running averages for all the oils tested thus far, listed by their API rating:

API P (ppm) Zn (ppm)
SE-SJ 1301 1280
CI-4 1150 1374
SL 994 1182
CJ-4 819 1014
SM 770 939



I do not recommend the use of any SM or CJ-4 motor oils in any aircooled Porsche, or any vehicle that can benefit from the added anti-wear additives such as pre-ODBII vehicles. If your vehicle is designed to use these newer oils or if your vehicle requires a manufacturer approved oil and is still under warranty, always follow your manufacturer's recommendations!

[Michael C Henry]

I'm sorry I live out here in Washington state. I've never seen This Bad penn stuff on any store shelf yet . Who sells it ? Where? in what quantities? How much $ ? I'm not currently interested in shirts or pocket knives with their logo on it.
Can you identify any these products by name as if I were sent to the store shopping for my wife? Also My car is not a computer controled machine with sensors that might get fouled. I'm pretty sure I've gone past the breakin point but still concerned about cam and lifter wear, can I keep running these products? The way thing are going I'll still have this tank of gasoline come Christmas.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Michael C Henry

I'm sorry I live out here in Washington state. I've never seen This Bad penn stuff on any store shelf yet . Who sells it ? Where? in what quantities? How much $ ? I'm not currently interested in shirts or pocket knives with their logo on it.

$4.59/qt. from here: http://www.cdoc.com/products.asp?str...=Brad+Penn+Oil

[patrickt]

$56.95/Case -- http://www.shop.worksvintagesupply.c...c?categoryId=2

[elmariachi]

Or call Brad Penn and the nice little girl will tell you who your local Brad Penn distributor is. I pay $4.50 a quart locally. FYI this oil is what USED to be in a Kendall Racing can.

[Michael C Henry]

Ok, information I received said, Brad Penn 20w50 oil has Phosphorus content of 1340-1400 ppm and zinc 1500 ppm. and it's the same stuff that used to come in Kendall cans. And what I interpret is that conventional oils cling better to parts than synthetic oils. I should be past the breakin period so what do I need for the long run to maintain a solid lifter cam?

[bobcowan]

Unless you're racing and getting the oil really hot lap after lap, the Brad Penn should be just fine.

If you really want a synthetic, add the GM or or one of the cam company additives.

You could also use RP or Redline motorcycle oil. But they're really expensive - $15-20 a qt.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

If you really want a synthetic, add the GM or or one of the cam company additives.

I believe, but I am not positive, that GM changed the formulation in their GM EOS when they temporarily discontinued it year before last and then reinstated it a little while later with a different number. I believe, but I am not positive, that they significantly increased the detergent levels in their product (while pretty much keeping the Zinc/Phos. levels as they were. You can undoubtedly find a VOS for it over on BobIsTheOilGuy. The only reason I don't have a definitive answer is because I have a case of the old stuff down in the basement. And you probably don't need it with BP anyway -- BP is really good stuff for solid flat tappets and the Zinc/Phos. numbers are up where they should be. The old GM EOS looks like this:

[Ant]

I have used schubeck ceramic flat tappet lifters which are advertised as being less fussy on break in etc.

I emailed Chevron or Caltex NZ, they have supplied me with data that their Delo 400 has 0.15ppm zinc content still. My engine has has two dyno sessions first at KC on GTX with all the cam lube he built the engine with and second on Delo 400, I will continue to run Delo for the first two oil changes.

Delo 400 is rated for Diesel and petrol engines Chevron states what they built it for I dont know why people on the web that know little about oil say its and other makes of diesel oils are only made for diesel, this oil will be fine by itself with any additional zinc additives.