Clutch pedal catchy

[Texasdoc]

The last few times I've drive the car the clutch pedal travel seems catchy thru its motion. The clutch engagement point is the same, the engagement feels the same - the clutch doesn't feel like it is slipping, there is no burning smell, the fluid is clear. I flushed the fluid just to be sure. Any thoughts on why the clutch pedal movement would feel this way? It hadn't done this before.

Tilton master cylinder, McLeod hydraulic TOB, McLeod single disk clutch, steel flywheel.

[Chilibit]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

The last few times I've drive the car the clutch pedal travel seems catchy thru its motion. The clutch engagement point is the same, the engagement feels the same - the clutch doesn't feel like it is slipping, there is no burning smell, the fluid is clear. I flushed the fluid just to be sure. Any thoughts on why the clutch pedal movement would feel this way? It hadn't done this before.

Tilton master cylinder, McLeod hydraulic TOB, McLeod single disk clutch, steel flywheel.

Does it behave the same way if the motor is not running? Have you confirmed that the mechanical (non-hydraulic) elements of clutch activation are operating smoothly?

[Texasdoc]

I don't think it does when the motor is not running. I think it feels normal. I will have to check when I get home from work.

When I installed the HTOB, I set it with about 0.1" gap from the pressure plate fingers. Last week I checked and there was no gap. I had to screw in the adjustment ring a turn or so to get the gap back.

This has made me remember that a month ago when I bled the HTOB, I had to refill the fluid in the clutch reservoir - it was about half way down before I flushed it.

There are no mechanical noises. The clutch doesn't seem to grip any differently than before. The RPMs don't skip while accelerating in high gear. No burning smell. Just the pedal *feels* different making it hard to engage smoothly.

Edit: I just talked to my transmission guy. He suggests checking the TOB for leaks but thinks it is more likely the master cylinder since I can feel it. He says that if it were the slave/HTOB that more than likely it wouldn't feel differently, just wouldn't operate as efficiently. Air could get in the line reducing the hydraulic force, causing the bearing to push less, resulting in grinding gears, difficulty shifting, etc.

I'll look for the leaks (I don't want to pull the tranny), then remove the master cylinder to check it.

Other thoughts?

[Chilibit]

If it feels OK with no motor I am led to think it must be something that is spinning when the motor is running. HTOB adjustment or condition? I use an external slave so I am particularly uninformed about this. Would you describe an oil contaminated clutch plate as 'catchy?'

[Texasdoc]

Seems to me that if it were the clutch disk was contaminated it would slip in high gear, have a burnt smell, gears not engage, or some other symptom.

[Chilibit]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

Seems to me that if it were the clutch disk was contaminated it would slip in high gear, have a burnt smell, gears not engage, or some other symptom.

Reasonable. Does it do it with the transmission in neutral? I lean toward the bearing but I am no expert. A different driver might feel or hear things differently and that might help the diagnosis.

[1795]

Try fishing a clean cloth rag attached to some stiff wire in through the opening for the clutch fork/HTOB lines and rub it on the bottom and sides of the bell housing. Retrieve the rag and look for signs of hydraulic fluid. There should be no oil/fluid on the inside of the bell housing. Just make sure that the rag is securely attached to the wire, or now you will have to remove the transmission to get the rag out.

[Texasdoc]

I took the transmission off and there is a tiny bit of fluid inside the bell housing. I think it is leaking. Going back to mechanical TOB and fork. I loved the smoothness of the HTOB and hate the wilwood slave setup, but since these have so many problems, I'll just get rid of it.

It took me forever to find the right TOB for the TKO. Any time I typed "throwout bearing TKO" into Google, Jegs or Summit, I only got hydraulic TOB results. I finally measured the outside diameter of the retaining bearing myself - 1.43". The only TOB that I could find with that diameter is the RAM-501. Every other mechanical TOB had a smaller internal diameter listed. Many had the right input shaft diameter - 1 1/8" - but had smaller ID than my retainer.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

It took me forever to find the right TOB for the TKO.

It should have been easier than that. Here's a thread listing two or three common TOBs, most at your local discount chain, for the TKO. FE/Lakewood/TKO600 throwout bearing?

[Texasdoc]

Well, considering where I started last night, it wasn't that easy. I found that thread during my search, but I didn't really understand it at first.

I don't have an FE. Does that matter? I didn't know. I have a TKO 600. Do they all have the same input shaft diameter? I didn't know. Search of TOBs on all the website list 1 1/16 input diameter, not the 1 1/8 that the TKO has. What is a self-aligning TOB? Does it matter? Wait a minute... It's not the input shaft diameter (1 1/16 vs 1 1/8") that matters, it is the bearing retainer diameter. What is a bearing retainer? Ok, that is what it is. Do all TKO 600's have the same bearing retainer diameter? Ok, no they don't. What size does mine have? Well, the Technical Specs from Tremec don't list the size of the bearing retainer in the Ford TKO with the 0.64 fifth gear. It is about the only spec they don't list. Well, lets go outside and measure it.... Ok, mine is 1.435. Wait, search for "throw out bearing" just shows hydraulic ones again. Can't do it that way. O'Reilly's, Autozone, Napa (etc) want to know what kind of car this goes in. They don't have a 2012 1965 cobra replica on their website. It's 11pm so I can't just run down a see what they have. Half of the ones you find on Summit don't list the internal diameter. If you just select at TKO, again, it only shows hydraulic ones. How do I get Summit to sort them by the internal diameter size? Wait, it is still listing hydrauilc ones. Finally figure out how to get Summit to list them by internal diameter - only one lists 1.43. Wait, my bearing retainer measures 1.435. Does that matter? Maybe I mis-measured - go back outside and measure it again. Use different calipers. Measusre a couple of times at different points. No, still 1.435. I hope the ONLY TOB I found list as 1.43 works!!! Does it matter that I have a Quicktime bellhousing? How much room do I have. Do I need a short one or a long one? Do I need an adjustable pivot ball. Does the stock Fox Body Mustang clutch fork even fit in the Quicktime bellhousing. Does Quicktime sell a TOB? Does McLeod? Is it dependent on the clutch or the bellhousing? Was I supposed to get one when I bought the clutch? Wait, is it called a Release Bearing? What is different about those? Can I use my Wilwood slave cylinder with the Fox fork? Do I have the right Master Cylinder bore to use with the slave? Do I need to switch to a push style slave cylinder?

ETC. ETC. ETC.

So, yes, it took a while. Granted, most of the time was my learning what I didn't know. Yes, I did search. There is not a thread that says "for a SBF with a TKO 600 with a 1.435 bearing retainer, Quicktime Bellhousing and a Wilwood Slave you use this fork and this TOB". Sometimes the answer is not that simple.

But thanks for the help.

[ACHiPo]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

ETC. ETC. ETC.

So, yes, it took a while. Granted, most of the time was my learning what I didn't know. Yes, I did search. There is not a thread that says "for a SBF with a TKO 600 with a 1.435 bearing retainer, Quicktime Bellhousing and a Wilwood Slave you use this fork and this TOB". Sometimes the answer is not that simple.

But thanks for the help.

Doc,
I had to chuckle, because that's just how I felt a couple weeks ago when a two-hour starter replacement ended up taking most of a 4-day weekend! Might still be noodling on it without your and other's help.

Sure did learn something, though.

AC