Tko600 Warning!!!!

[KEISLERGENE]

Originally Posted by Toby

I have read this thread with much interest! Let me give some insight to all concerned about these people (Keisler), I am not here to speak about Tremec transmissions one way or another, only Keislers reputation as I have experienced it.

They were extremely pleasant and confident in their abilities when they were taking my money, from that point on it was wrong parts and fiasco after fiasco right up until they tried to deny that they sold me a "kit". They continued their horrible customer service until I finally had to get nasty with them to get them to deliver what they promised.

I also have experience with their brand of "engineering". Which consisted of a halfassed attempt at a bearing spacer that truly was one step above bear skins and stone knives.

I will never under any circumstances purchase anything else from these people and encourage anyone to carry your business elsewhere.

Toby

Now this is the kind of harrassment I can live with, a legitimate complaint.
and bubba in engineering won't like the comment about the bearskins and stone knives.

Not making light of this gentleman's complaints. We dont offer a complete kit for any Ford other than Mustangs check our site www.keislerauto.com

I am sincerly sorry you had issue's

Gene

[ByronRACE]

Just in case you didn't intentionally miss these questions regarding your warranty policies...

How is "abuse" objectively determined?

Who has the burden of proof...the customer, or the manufacturer?

[rj8806]

Originally Posted by Toby

I have read this thread with much interest! Let me give some insight to all concerned about these people (Keisler), I am not here to speak about Tremec transmissions one way or another, only Keislers reputation as I have experienced it.

They were extremely pleasant and confident in their abilities when they were taking my money, from that point on it was wrong parts and fiasco after fiasco right up until they tried to deny that they sold me a "kit". They continued their horrible customer service until I finally had to get nasty with them to get them to deliver what they promised.

I also have experience with their brand of "engineering". Which consisted of a halfassed attempt at a bearing spacer that truly was one step above bear skins and stone knives.

I will never under any circumstances purchase anything else from these people and encourage anyone to carry your business elsewhere.

Toby

Toby:
I do remember working with you concerning the issues you encountered. We did make 2 mistakes regarding the flywheel which I took care of the same day it was brought to my attention. You were very pleasant on the phone and even said you understood, heck, I even overnighted one shipment on our dime just to help you out. Not once, were you nasty with me and for that I say thank you. I'm sorry you had some errors but I feel confident I took care of the issues in a timely fashion. We even talked about your kit car and my '90 LX at great length.
I'm sorry you have those feelings towards us but if I can do anything else for you, please don't hesitate to call me.
Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering

[trularin]

Gene/Keisler/Richard, You seem to have a few skeletons in the closet.

And, I don't wonder in time if more will come to visit.

But, I have a full bag of popcorn.

[mannyjoe]

Hey Guys
I don't know anything about Keisler or Gene or much about anything else but I'm always a little concerned when the 1st time someone posts it is to complain about a problem. If it's just a legit warning about a bad product fine, I think thats great. But it seems like he joined the forum just to complain about Keisler and Tremec, and he didn't dispute Gene's claim that they (Keisler) offered to eat the labor and just charge for the parts.
It seems like Keisler offered what they thought was a fair and reasonable compromise, the customer disagrees and is unhappy. At this point I would think that both parties are at an impasse and they should just let it go.
That's my 'never to be humble' opinion.
mannyjoe

[KEISLERGENE]

Originally Posted by ByronRACE

Just in case you didn't intentionally miss these questions regarding your warranty policies...

How is "abuse" objectively determined?

Who has the burden of proof...the customer, or the manufacturer?

In black in white from Keisler Automotive Engineering

" This warranty is void if improperly installed, abused in any manner,or used for racing or experimantal purposes."

This is posted on the side bar of our website along with being sent to the customer.

In this case we had clear representation that it was abuse.

Gene

[rj8806]

Originally Posted by trularin

Gene/Keisler/Richard, You seem to have a few skeletons in the closet.

And, I don't wonder in time if more will come to visit.

But, I have a full bag of popcorn.

HUH????? Could you explain that... it is late and I'm tired. Not sure I follow you.

[undy]

I too have been following closely.. I've a similar eperience with a Richmond 6 speed that I had in a 496 powered 69 Stingray. I pulled 2nd gear hard and engaged the clutch harshly before I was fully in second. The result was a fragged 2nd gear. Knowing that I had caused the failure, not the result of an inadequate tranny, I felt the burden of repair was mine. When I disassembled the unit there were "imprints" at the teeth fracture lines that indicated that the failure occured on partial engagement. At no point did I even consider holding the manufacturer/retailer liable for my crappy shift. I agree with Kiesler, for the most part, in his case. The customer tried to deceive them and our forum here, apparently to sway sentiment and pressure to force Kiesler into making an unjustified warranty repair. To me the apparent deceipt would indicate that the party "knew" they were in the wrong from the get-go.

I think Kiesler's offering to repair with free labor and a reduced parts charge was extremely fair.

I've never bought anything from Kiesler in the past and I definately would not let this sway me against spending my money with them. Nobody's dating my sister .... but she's 82 and single should someone care to make amorous advances..

[KEISLERGENE]

Originally Posted by trularin

Gene/Keisler/Richard, You seem to have a few skeletons in the closet.

And, I don't wonder in time if more will come to visit.

But, I have a full bag of popcorn.

No I let mine all out. You clearly aren't reading all the post here.

As with any company who sells more Tremec trans than anyone else. You are bound to have problems. We can't live up to absolutly everyone's expectations if anyone can they hold the golden ticket to buisness.


Salute

Gene

[trularin]

Possibly in time. No insult intended, but I think if I have to explain those comments, you should have more time on this forum and possibly in your life.

Strange how, some guy complains and you show up a very little while later, to defend yourself. Much too conveinent, but it is interesting entertainment.

[Excaliber]

Well it looks like work has ground to a halt at Keisler with half the staff now engaged in damage control. Whew, good luck to all parties and I sincerely hope a satisfactory resolution is worked out.

I'd buy a Tremec without hesitation, that picture of the 'Stang pulling a wheelie rocks.

[KEISLERGENE]

Originally Posted by trularin

Possibly in time. No insult intended, but I think if I have to explain those comments, you should have more time on this forum and possibly in your life.

Strange how, some guy complains and you show up a very little while later, to defend yourself. Much too conveinent, but it is interesting entertainment.

Dude in a case where this guy is wrong you bet we are going to show up and defend ourselves.If someone pokes you in the eye unwarranted you would do the same thing, If you had any fur on your bean bag. I can also honestly tell you until he e-mailed us with a nasty gram this morning warning us he was going to post even though he already had, I had never heard of this forum.

If I do a search here of our name it pops in here quite frequently

I like it here and if you read all the post then you know the truth.

It amazes me even though were the good guys, here we have to keep defending ourselves.

I also assure you I will be here through the good and the bad from now on.

Hopefully I can help and learn along the way.

Like I said in the previous post we have had issue's no doubt about it.

I can assure you we will do the best we can to solve anyone's legitimate problem. keep in mind we are just like you guys we love the Hobby.

I am very proud of my job and were I work. This is a dream job for me.
I get to talk guys about cars all day and dream of buying the things they are telling me about, too install on my own car.

Gene

p.s. the bean bag comment wasn't directed to you it was in general.

[KEISLERGENE]

well I am going home after my 11 hour day and I am taking my toys too.

I will catch up with you guys in the am


Gene

[Fordfan69]

I would like to re-clarify things a bit:

1. The reason why I joined this forum was that I knew that many people with the Cobra cars a running the Tremec transmission and I wanted to let them know of the trouble I was having. Some might find it useful to know of problems with certain parts before the purchase them. I know I would want to know if I was planning on buying something and others were having problems/ breakage with them. It's my hard earned money that I am going to spend.

2. I fully agree that I did write that letter stating that I was going down the road. I wrote that letter because AFTER I received the transmission, I then read the warranty information that Keisler would not cover the trans if it was raced. I stated this before: they did not once say that when I mentioned upon ordering this tranny, that part of my intention was to take it to the track OCCASSIONALLY. I did race the car at the track and 3rd gear did break at the track. I had a strong feeling that had I been honest with them about that, They definitely would not warranty it. I also stated before that had they stopped me when I mentioned occassionally racing it, I would have rethought purchasing it and purchased a transmission more appropriate for me and my outings.

3. Every single knowledgealbe and even not-so knowledgeable people that I have shown the gears to absolutely said it must have been some sort of a part failure or improper installation (gear meshing not right). I am the first one to admit that I am in no way perfect, but I and others looked very hard and I also thought back to the moment very hard and there is not a doubt in my mind that I did not miss that shift. I've attached another picture showing more clearly 3rd gear's dog teeth and synchro blocker. They are in excellent shape. The shape of ones that came out of a box with only slightly more than 1000 miles on them. If I wasn't in the gear all the way or missed the shift, the dog teeth would be damaged and/or rounded. Not the case. If any damage would occur from improper usage, as they say, wouldn't it be to the dog teeth. How is it possible that they are mint. That tells me and others that the synchro hub was fully engaged to the 3rd gear. I am not saying that Keisler assembled the tranny incorrectly, but there is something wrong for the main teeth to fail in that way on that angle opposite that of the cluster gear.

4. Another reason why I felt this failure was not a failure of my own doing is due to the fact that I found another user of the Tremec 5speed that also had a failure. When I looked at his picture, It looked almost identical to mine. The teeth sheared off on the same angles and all. Another reason why I thought it might be a part failure. You can see his picture and read his post if you want at http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23218

5. The offer that Keisler made to me was a little appauling. I spend nearly $3900. with them on the kit and clutch, and they want me to spend another $430. on the parts. They said they would reassemble it for free. When I called to find out the progress, I was told it was "dissassembled in 800 pieces on the bench" They sent it back to me fully assembled. They had to reassemble it anyway whether I chose to fix or not. So what were they really offering. Nothing. I just chose to not give them any more money and give it to someone else.

6. My post was highly accurate. The car was brought to the track once, didn't even make down the whole way , driven down the return road and into the pits onto a rented trailer. pushed off trailer and not driven again. period. (That's why the rest of the transmission looks as clean as it does.) If I would have driven it after like someone stated I probably did, do you think the transmission would look the way it does inside? No. it wouldn't.

Again, The only reason I made my experience public on these forums (only 3) is to alert other car people to what happened so they can make better informed decisions. That's all. I would hope others do the same.

Thanks,
Greg.

[Buzz]

This feeding frenzy is incredible. There is absolute proof that the customer lied about the circumstances of the transmission failure both to the vendor in question and to us on this forum. Yet, his credibility is not questioned and abuse continues to be heaped on the vendor who appears to have been very reasonable in an attempt to help the guy out. Despite his proven deception. Ok, so we as consumers have a reason to hold some solidarity, BUT - right is right and wrong is wrong. Why does the party that lied still get the benefit of the doubt? How can we blindly support someone who has clearly decieved us and the target of the post? Why clutch at straws to dump on Keisler - so what if word gets back to them about the thread and they jump in to defend? Wouldn't you? Who cares if he was lurking on the forum and saw it himself? Just because it's consumer (us) vs. the big business (them) it doesn't mean we should support deceit and unethical behavior. Be a man and do what's right for crying out loud - admit your mistake, accept the kind offer on the labour and parts and move on. The lie to keisler was exposed both here and on the Moparts forum. Personally I think they would have been within their rights to tell you to shove that tranny you know where. I don't appreciate people playing with my sentiments by telling fibs and half truths in an attempt to influence my opinion or relationship with someone else. But that's just me.

[Fordfan69]

And I call deception taking a sale of over $3800. knowing the user is going to use the product you are selling in a way that will void the warranty ( and not even mentioning it) . What do you call it?

[trularin]

Gee Buzz, I was kinda taking a seat like Ernie.

This has got to be some of the best banter I have seen in at least...a week.

I called Tremec, they said after 90 days, you're on your own, but they did say it was unlimited and the guy told me it was a race transmission, they expected guys to race it.

That gear doesn't look like a missed gear, it looks more like one of the teeth fractured and once one went, it cascaded.

Dude, just sit back and enjoy the show. I'll bet Ernie has laughed at least as much as I have.

[392cobra]

What Buzz said,times 2.

When you lie to get what you want,you deserve nothing.Maybe even less.

[ByronRACE]

Originally Posted by KEISLERGENE

In black in white from Keisler Automotive Engineering

" This warranty is void if improperly installed, abused in any manner,or used for racing or experimantal purposes."

This is posted on the side bar of our website along with being sent to the customer.

In this case we had clear representation that it was abuse.

Gene

OK, so your warranty is void if your car is ever raced. So did you define "racing"? If not, then street racing, drag racing, road racing, or driving fast in any manner...could be considered racing, right? If that's true, anyone that has ever bought a transmission from you has voided the warranty.

What does "experimental purposes" mean? The transmission in question is designed to be used universally and targeted for rodders. You could argue that any rodder putting that transmission into anything other than an OEM application is doing so "experimentally". Again, that's a convenient way of voiding everyones warranty if you feel fit isn't it?

And back to my original 2 questions...

How is abuse objectively determined? If it's determined at your whim and will, then you can claim abuse for any and all equipment failures can't you?

Who has the burden of proof regarding this alleged "abuse"...the customer, or the manufacturer? If it's the customer, are we expected to prove we didn't abuse a product in the event that it failed? How the hell is a customer going to do that? If it's the manufacturer that proves the abuse occurred, where is the detailed analysis/test report data that shows this was abuse? I, for one, would be comforted to know that such testing actually takes place, and that it is actually objective instead of some guy in back room saying "yep, he slammed 3rd for sure...void his warranty."

I, for one, am not buying a transmisson from a company that puts the burden of proof on the customer. And, if the burden of proof is on the manufacturer, I expect to see a failure analysis report that can hold its own. Otherwise, I'll take my business elsewhere.

[Ital-cobra]

Sounds to me....... like you joined the forum to bash Keisler, not to inform us Cobra guys.