Tko600 Warning!!!!

[Buzz]

Fordfan, I feel for your plight - none of us would like a busted transmission and I in no way have anything against you personally. This is from Keisler's website - I assume (hope ) it wasn't just recently added:
"This warranty is void if the product is or was improperly installed, abused in any manner, or used for racing or experimental purposes. Road or accident damage is not covered."

Too true, Tru

[trularin]

Buzz!!!! LMAO

[ROUSHAC]

Originally Posted by Fordfan69

Hi guys,

Just wanted to give you an update. Over a week has gone by and I'm still haven't heard anything from Tremec. I think I will wait until the end of the week and then call them.

Also, I took 3rd gear over to a tool and die manufacturing co. and had them Rockwell test the gear for hardness themselves. It was 60-60.5 on the R. scale which he said was very very hard. He was surprised being that a metal file is just about a 65. It is a Chromemoly gearset though, so it might be right. I would love to know if there is a test to see if it is too brittle though. Anybody out there know? I might look into bringing it to a Metalurgist to see if he can tell me anything about the failure.

finally, when I rebuild this unit, I am definitely going to put gear mesh paint on all of the gears and test the mesh pattern, just like they do on the rear ends. There might be nothing wrong with the gear and it might have been from improper mesh/backlash. That will tell alot. I looked closely at second gear and I don't like the mesh pattern at all. That's what gave me the idea of checking them all.

Thanks very much for the comments and feedback. I'll keep you posted as soon as I hear back from Tremec.

Fordfan69,

From what I've read here, Tremec and Kesler made their determination based on a visual inspection.

It sure sounds like maybe a good idea to send that gear to Tremec and let them test it for hardness. To me that Rockwell number means a very brittle gear prone to breaking teeth off.

Possibly, they got a bad batch from heat treating. The worse they can say is nope that is the right hardness for our gear, you messed up. The best is that they may say whoops, our fault and make things right.

Certainly worth a try to show them some physical proof rather than just debating the question wth them.

In any case, if that was the cause of the breakage, it sure seems to be Tremec's problem not Keisler's.

You are right, that pic from the other site sure does look like yours.

Theirs:


Yours:


Good luck!

Cheers!
Dave

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by 392cobra

What Buzz said,times 2.

When you lie to get what you want,you deserve nothing.Maybe even less.

I'm with Buzz and 392cobra .

I am of the opinion that the dealer made a valid attempt to reconcile. To carry this any further just magnifies the deceit from the client.

I won't accept the mis-handling of the truth from my kids, so I am certainly not sympathetic to Fordfan's plight.

[Eljaro]

To me this looks like material failure. Such a transmission like the 600TKO with the advertised power handling should take a misshift with no problem.
We misshift every once in a while without breaking our transmissions.
I have a TKO600 myself and have raced it hard and it runs perfectly.

With every happy customer you gain 2-3 new customer, with every unhappy customer you loose 10. Bad new travel further than good news.
What are these guys at Kaisler arguing about?
I would try to get this issue settled in MINUTES and get the problem off this Forum ASAP.
Dont repair the broken TKO but send this guy a new transmission and fight the cost out with TREMEC. They will listen to you!
Keep the damage to you company to a minimum!

[Fordfan69]

Roushac:

Thank you for the input. that's a good idea.

Just to point out, both of those pictures you've posted are both mine.
The other transmission is in the link listed in my previous post. They do look almost identical in everyway.

Thanks

[xlr8or]

Originally Posted by Eljaro

I would try to get this issue settled in MINUTES and get the problem off this Forum ASAP.
Dont repair the broken TKO but send this guy a new transmission and fight the cost out with TREMEC. They will listen to you!
Keep the damage to you company to a minimum!

That's why he posted it here and other forums to try to bully them into a decision more in his favor after lying to them about the circumstances.

If he had hit the wall at the track and told state farm it happened on the street would he be getting any support here? NOPE! Would his insurance pay to repair the car knowing it was on the track?? HE!! NO. You take the car to the track and it's all on you.
I've put over 4400 miles on my TKO600 with an engine that makes over 600ft. lbs and had no problem what so ever. Last month when I made over a dozen runs down the drag strip in one night I understood that if I broke it I bought it.

Quit your whining and accept the offer that was extended and move on.

[rj8806]

Originally Posted by Fordfan69

I would like to re-clarify things a bit:

1. The reason why I joined this forum was that I knew that many people with the Cobra cars a running the Tremec transmission and I wanted to let them know of the trouble I was having. Some might find it useful to know of problems with certain parts before the purchase them. I know I would want to know if I was planning on buying something and others were having problems/ breakage with them. It's my hard earned money that I am going to spend.

2. I fully agree that I did write that letter stating that I was going down the road. I wrote that letter because AFTER I received the transmission, I then read the warranty information that Keisler would not cover the trans if it was raced. I stated this before: they did not once say that when I mentioned upon ordering this tranny, that part of my intention was to take it to the track OCCASSIONALLY. I did race the car at the track and 3rd gear did break at the track. I had a strong feeling that had I been honest with them about that, They definitely would not warranty it. I also stated before that had they stopped me when I mentioned occassionally racing it, I would have rethought purchasing it and purchased a transmission more appropriate for me and my outings.

3. Every single knowledgealbe and even not-so knowledgeable people that I have shown the gears to absolutely said it must have been some sort of a part failure or improper installation (gear meshing not right). I am the first one to admit that I am in no way perfect, but I and others looked very hard and I also thought back to the moment very hard and there is not a doubt in my mind that I did not miss that shift. I've attached another picture showing more clearly 3rd gear's dog teeth and synchro blocker. They are in excellent shape. The shape of ones that came out of a box with only slightly more than 1000 miles on them. If I wasn't in the gear all the way or missed the shift, the dog teeth would be damaged and/or rounded. Not the case. If any damage would occur from improper usage, as they say, wouldn't it be to the dog teeth. How is it possible that they are mint. That tells me and others that the synchro hub was fully engaged to the 3rd gear. I am not saying that Keisler assembled the tranny incorrectly, but there is something wrong for the main teeth to fail in that way on that angle opposite that of the cluster gear.

4. Another reason why I felt this failure was not a failure of my own doing is due to the fact that I found another user of the Tremec 5speed that also had a failure. When I looked at his picture, It looked almost identical to mine. The teeth sheared off on the same angles and all. Another reason why I thought it might be a part failure. You can see his picture and read his post if you want at http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23218

5. The offer that Keisler made to me was a little appauling. I spend nearly $3900. with them on the kit and clutch, and they want me to spend another $430. on the parts. They said they would reassemble it for free. When I called to find out the progress, I was told it was "dissassembled in 800 pieces on the bench" They sent it back to me fully assembled. They had to reassemble it anyway whether I chose to fix or not. So what were they really offering. Nothing. I just chose to not give them any more money and give it to someone else.

6. My post was highly accurate. The car was brought to the track once, didn't even make down the whole way , driven down the return road and into the pits onto a rented trailer. pushed off trailer and not driven again. period. (That's why the rest of the transmission looks as clean as it does.) If I would have driven it after like someone stated I probably did, do you think the transmission would look the way it does inside? No. it wouldn't.

Again, The only reason I made my experience public on these forums (only 3) is to alert other car people to what happened so they can make better informed decisions. That's all. I would hope others do the same.

Thanks,
Greg.

Just to clarify: Keisler does not assemble the TKO. WE simply modify the shift position so that if fits in a particular application, in this case, a 1968 Charger. Because this failure occurred in the gear set, we called in a Tremec rep to inspect the damage and give his opinion and he came to the same conclusion we did. By the way, we didn't give the rep any background on the tranny in question prior to his inspection. We wanted an un-biased opinion.
Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering

[lineslinger]

An unbiased opinion from a factory rep?

How often is he/she going to rule against the company that pays their salary?

Stories have shifted since this thread was originaly posted and I must say so has my opinion about the gentleman who posted it. What we were told and what actually ocourred seem to vary quite a bit.
If Keisler would have snapped up that gear box and said "well' take care of it" I have to believe that would have had a much more positive impact on future biz, and industry perception than the cluster%$#@ and finger pointing taking place now.
For someone still considering which gearbox to buy and where to buy it from I gotta tell you I would be seeking a company with more a positive stance/attitude than what is being presented here by Keisler even though I believe they are being reasonable in their approach.
The BIG business "picture" says "We will fix the damn thing and tell your pals". The cost of said repair is a spit in the ocean compared to the potential new business to be generated.
The customer was BS-ing you??? So what, chances are anyone that know and hangs with the guy are going to know about him too and they (Keisler) still fixed his gearbox? "Hmmmm, maybe I oughta give them a look" Positive customer relations is one of the cheapest and most effective ways to be perceived as the "go to guys".
A lot cheaper than say a 30 second radio spot, a magazine ad, a billboard, a web popup, etc. etc.
And look where the adverserial stance has them now.

Win the battle and lose the war.

[Fordfan69]

Richard,

1: My whole problem with the outcome has been twofold:
As I mentioned, the salesrep that placed my order was informed It would be racing it ocassionally - Nothing was said to me about voiding warranty.

2: The explanation for the "abuse" that was given to me by you and the Plant Manager shifted from "you missed the shift or the gear was halfway in", then changed to " the clutch you are using is way too aggressive and shocked the tranny". When I reminded you guys that your company was the one that recommended the clutch from the beginning and sold it to me, it then went back to "the gear being halfway in".

That's why I feel keisler was "grasping" at a reason to pin it on me and not search into/have Tremec search into whether there are a bad batch of gears(maybe mine is the only one) out there(if that indeed is the case)

I told you before, I am not asking for anything I don't truly and honestly feel is unjust. I was never really given a good technical explanation when I asked many times.

Also, You guys mill the tailshaft as well as a small portion of the top shift plate. You must dissassemble the tailshaft and toplate to do that. You then have to reassemble it. That is why Tremec is saying they can't cover it. You are an authorized distributor, but why don't they feel comfortable enough in you work to cover it. They will cover the transmission if it is raced at the track. Just look at the ad the have. If they stand behind their transmission, why can't you?

Greg.

[Rebel1]

Originally Posted by lineslinger

An unbiased opinion from a factory rep?

How often is he/she going to rule against the company that pays their salary?

Stories have shifted since this thread was originaly posted and I must say so has my opinion about the gentleman who posted it. What we were told and what actually ocourred seem to vary quite a bit.
If Keisler would have snapped up that gear box and said "well' take care of it" I have to believe that would have had a much more positive impact on future biz, and industry perception than the cluster%$#@ and finger pointing taking place now.
For someone still considering which gearbox to buy and where to buy it from I gotta tell you I would be seeking a company with more a positive stance/attitude than what is being presented here by Keisler even though I believe they are being reasonable in their approach.
The BIG business "picture" says "We will fix the damn thing and tell your pals". The cost of said repair is a spit in the ocean compared to the potential new business to be generated.
The customer was BS-ing you??? So what, chances are anyone that know and hangs with the guy are going to know about him too and they (Keisler) still fixed his gearbox? "Hmmmm, maybe I oughta give them a look" Positive customer relations is one of the cheapest and most effective ways to be perceived as the "go to guys".
A lot cheaper than say a 30 second radio spot, a magazine ad, a billboard, a web popup, etc. etc.
And look where the adverserial stance has them now.

Win the battle and lose the war.

Gotta disagree with you.....This fordfan came into this court of public opinion with a "TK600 Warning!!!" thread. His intentions were clear.

He FORCED a trader to take a defensive stance even after that trader had offered a reasonable reconciliation.

Maybe it is a difference in cultures or maybe a difference in consumer laws but here in Australia at the time of the offer to repair, fordfan had a choice to accept and get the box repaired quickly but still be able to pursue what he clearly feels is an injustice.

After the repair he could have then sent the gear to Tremec for a second inspection, seek all the expert opinions he wants , come in here and ask how many 3rd gears have broken and then go seek resolution in a consumer court with all the evidence he had assembled . Here in Australia consumer courts are free and chaired by an independent referee.

If he had won his case he would have got his money back....only then has he justification to badmouth the trader and manufacturer in a public forum.

This notion about traders having to bow down to lying consumers is just wrong. The Company trading terms were advertised before the transaction. If fordfan didn't like them he could have purchased elsewhere.

That's my rant for the day

[jdog]

This could have been a great PR opportunuty for the seller/manufacturer. What do you think 'their' cost was for this one trans?

By the sellers own figures, they have 4000 on the road. What could their loss be on one?

They could have made a poster child out of this guy.

Have you ever been to a casino? You'ed think they wouldn't like big Jackpot winners, right? Wrong! They love them! They make poster's & signs with their "happy' faces. They make it back 10 times over with new vict....er customers!

Even if this guy was scamming them, they could have made it a boone for their immage. You can't buy the those 'happy faces' you earn them! And they will pay you back 10 times over.

I believe even if the seller & manufacturer are right as rain, they lost! And they could have hit the Jackpot.

jdog
P.S. I have a tremec 600 in my car, and written right on my reciept from the seller/installer is says:"If you race it, you own it". I understand what that means!

[Excaliber]

Good point Jdog.
Yet another entertaining thread brought to you by Club Cobra!

I understand where Fordfan69 is coming from with the mixed up 'reports' on what happened. That doesn't make it right, but man, I can understand the delimna.

I blew up a rental car engine once, the darn oil drain plug unscrewed itself and fell out! Lost all the engine oil, hey not MY fault! But, well, I was on a rode expressly forbidden to be on by the rental contract. What to do???? I managed to get the car to a 'safe' place (amazing how far you can drive without oil) and called them from there.

"Hello? Is this the rental car place? My car won't go, can you send someone to make it go?"

Restricted PAVED roads? How stupid is THAT!

[trularin]

I think lineslinger makes a good point.

"Would any of you blokes buy a transmission from these buggers after this thread?"

First they charged twice what anyone, even Tremec would change for the TKO600.

Second they have the most ridicules warranty I have ever heard of for a performance transmission.

Third, there is obviously some difference of opinion between the guy who purchased it and the people selling it. And, it's not like they didn't make their money off the deal.

When asked, Tremec stated:

1. It is a performance transmission.
2. there is a 90 day unlimited warranty.
3. we know it will be raced.

I don't get that warm fuzzy feeling about these guys or the person who posted this "entertaining thread brought to you by Club Cobra!".

I read back pedaling in the words written by both.

AND, if this had grenaded as the shop had said, why aren't the lead in teeth where the syncro aligns the shift collar sheared off?

Got to love CC, only the best in live entertainment.

[keislerNick]

Also, You guys mill the tailshaft as well as a small portion of the top shift plate. You must dissassemble the tailshaft and toplate to do that. You then have to reassemble it. That is why Tremec is saying they can't cover it. You are an authorized distributor, but why don't they feel comfortable enough in you work to cover it. They will cover the transmission if it is raced at the track. Just look at the ad the have. If they stand behind their transmission, why can't you?

Greg.[/quote]

Who ever you talked to at tremec has obviously misinturpreted the warranty. As all transmissions we do are still under warranty by tremec taking the tailhousing and topplate off has no affect on the internal gear set and is still under warranty from tremec. We do cover many transmissions and tremec sends us alot of customers to us to warranty for them direct. Also if you call the tech line and tell them you broke your trans drag racing they do not cover that I am sorry if they mislead you but that doesnt happen.

[keislerNick]

Originally Posted by jdog

This could have been a great PR opportunuty for the seller/manufacturer. What do you think 'their' cost was for this one trans?

By the sellers own figures, they have 4000 on the road. What could their loss be on one?

They could have made a poster child out of this guy.

Have you ever been to a casino? You'ed think they wouldn't like big Jackpot winners, right? Wrong! They love them! They make poster's & signs with their "happy' faces. They make it back 10 times over with new vict....er customers!

Even if this guy was scamming them, they could have made it a boone for their immage. You can't buy the those 'happy faces' you earn them! And they will pay you back 10 times over.

I believe even if the seller & manufacturer are right as rain, they lost! And they could have hit the Jackpot.

jdog
P.S. I have a tremec 600 in my car, and written right on my reciept from the seller/installer is says:"If you race it, you own it". I understand what that means!

Jdog the thing is we did make an offer on getting this situation resolved at a small cost. Second thing if we had made a poster child of him no one would ever hear from him. I love forums and post on many the thing is you very rarely see a praise thread for a company if your car is running good. Nor do you see a mopar guy posting about his love for a company on a cobra forum. I would enjoy myself and drive it.

[KEISLERGENE]

Originally Posted by trularin

I think lineslinger makes a good point.

"Would any of you blokes buy a transmission from these buggers after this thread?"

First they charged twice what anyone, even Tremec would change for the TKO600.

Second they have the most ridicules warranty I have ever heard of for a performance transmission.

Third, there is obviously some difference of opinion between the guy who purchased it and the people selling it. And, it's not like they didn't make their money off the deal.

When asked, Tremec stated:

1. It is a performance transmission.
2. there is a 90 day unlimited warranty.
3. we know it will be raced.

I don't get that warm fuzzy feeling about these guys or the person who posted this "entertaining thread brought to you by Club Cobra!".

I read back pedaling in the words written by both.

AND, if this had grenaded as the shop had said, why aren't the lead in teeth where the syncro aligns the shift collar sheared off?

Got to love CC, only the best in live entertainment.

Let me help you with a few things here.


Ist of all the trans he bought had been modified to fit into his car properly.

you can't take a stock tremec and put in to his car without modification.

If you had taken the time to investigate what we do you would see this is
a complete kit inluding trans, crossmember , driveshaft all parts needed for the conversion.

you obviously haven't bought any race parts. There warranty isnt that great either.

So you went to our website and read our entire warranty statement.
or are you just reading what you want here.


Alot of you guys said we should of fixed it for good PR. If we would have done that, what do you think the chances are he would of posted anything.


you have to take the %'s chance it's like this, with all the veiw's this post has had along with all the other place's this guy has posted. The percentage of people posting is few. I can tell you from experiance guys still call in and buy most of them think that there are just a bunch of whiners out there.

So some publicity is better than the chance of none.

To those of you who can see our side thanks. The rest of you?

[WarrenG]

A few years ago Vandersteen, a high end speaker manufacturer in CA, received a warranty repair request from one of their So. Cal dealers. Their customer reported that his speakers "melted down" when he was listening to them at normal levels in his home. Upon examination of the speaker drivers, Vandersteen said hold, there is no way this happened during "normal" listening levels.

Turns out the customer had the system cranked up loud enough to be heard in the yard (from his living room) while he was running the lawn mower. Definately not what is considered normal listening levels by anybody's definition in the hobby, manufacturer or user. The drivers for these particular speakers cost considerably more than the $430 quoted for the parts damaged in this transmission.

Vandersteen, who has always been known for great customer service, still replaced the drivers at no charge for the customer and gained an even greater reputation for excellent customer service in the industry.

Not going to take sides here, I can certainly identify with both. It does seem to me that both Keisler and Tremec could have gained alot by writing off the cost of repairs to "purchasing" of additional "goodwill."

That said alot of the repetitive rhetoric used in some of the posts (both sides) gets pretty tiresome. Some people (including a certain electronics dealer) obviously have way too much time on their hands.

[rj8806]

Originally Posted by Fordfan69

And I call deception taking a sale of over $3800. knowing the user is going to use the product you are selling in a way that will void the warranty ( and not even mentioning it) . What do you call it?

We never said you can't race the transmission. Hell, I bought mine from Keisler as well and I beat the crap out of it on a daily basis. If it breaks I know it's on me. Just because I work here doesn't mean the same rules don't apply. Yes, I got it at a discount( it was actually a returned unit(used)), if I break it, I will have to buy another one.
I bought a crate 347ci for my Mustang from a local Ford dealership. You know what the warranty paperwork said when i read it?..... "The warranty is voided if used for racing". I paid over $6000.00 for the motor. Doesn't change the fact that if I race it, which I do, and break it, it's on me. Come to think of it, I have never bought anything, performance related, for my stang, that didn't have the same disclaimer.
Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering

[rj8806]

Originally Posted by Fordfan69

Richard,

1: My whole problem with the outcome has been twofold:
As I mentioned, the salesrep that placed my order was informed It would be racing it ocassionally - Nothing was said to me about voiding warranty.

2: The explanation for the "abuse" that was given to me by you and the Plant Manager shifted from "you missed the shift or the gear was halfway in", then changed to " the clutch you are using is way too aggressive and shocked the tranny". When I reminded you guys that your company was the one that recommended the clutch from the beginning and sold it to me, it then went back to "the gear being halfway in".

That's why I feel keisler was "grasping" at a reason to pin it on me and not search into/have Tremec search into whether there are a bad batch of gears(maybe mine is the only one) out there(if that indeed is the case)

I told you before, I am not asking for anything I don't truly and honestly feel is unjust. I was never really given a good technical explanation when I asked many times.

Also, You guys mill the tailshaft as well as a small portion of the top shift plate. You must dissassemble the tailshaft and toplate to do that. You then have to reassemble it. That is why Tremec is saying they can't cover it. You are an authorized distributor, but why don't they feel comfortable enough in you work to cover it. They will cover the transmission if it is raced at the track. Just look at the ad the have. If they stand behind their transmission, why can't you?

Greg.

I beleive the statement about the clutch being way too aggressive started in either this thread or one of the other 2 foums you signed on to. We sell that particular clutch all day long and no one else has called with the same compaint.
As for "grasping" for a reason.... The evidence speaks for itself. The gear was sheared off in the front of the gear. If there was a defect in the material, the outcome would have been different.
Tremec saying that they wouldn't warranty the transmission is a mis-understanding on your part. I spoke at great length to the rep yesterday about this statement and that is simply not true. They will not warranty any of OUR parts, but the internals are not affected by that statement. We are an authorized repair center. In fact, Tremec has referred several guys who were not our customer, to send their tranny to us for warranty repair. Tremec only offers a 3 month warranty on the tranny where we double that to 6 months.
This is a mute point anyway as Tremec has inspected it too and came to the same conclusion we did, abuse. They will not warranty it for that reason.
We do seperate the tailhousing from the main case and machine it(the tailhousing). The way I read your statement about "us re-assembling" the tranny, to mean that we removed the internals for our machining process and then re-assemble it. My mistake. I mis-understood.
Once again, we are willing to eat the labor and you pay wholesale price for the parts needed. That is the only answer you are going to get so take the advice given to you by many on this forum(and the other 2) and let's get this behind us. Your Charger is meant to be driven and our kit is meant for you to enjoy driving it more so fix it and go enjoy it.
Richard
Tech Support
Keisler Engineering