XHP 260 and aluminum blocks

[Guido36]

Having searched this site and the web in general there seems to be little information on the XHP 260 - as opposed to the Hi Po 260. What I have gleaned so far is that 100 were made specifically for Shelby but that some may have been used for Ford Fairlane race cars. I have seen mention of possible aluminum blocks as used on the 1963 255 Ford Indy pushrod engine and photos of XHP 260-2 with 58mm Weber Sidedrafts on a cross ram intake designed by Phil Remington and possibly produced in a very small number by Mickey Thompson. Is there a Dean Moon connection on the intake? Can anyone shed any further light and factual history of the XHP engines and on 260/289 aluminum blocks of this era?

[Ron61]

I am not stating this as the complete fact but from the one that I saw and talking to the Shelby people way back then, the XHP-260 stood for Experimental High Performance 260 engine which was rated at 260 horsepower and was never offered to the public. I never saw one in a Fairlane or any other car except a Cobra.

Ron

[Gaz64]

Here it is here:

http://www.289register.com/cobrepl8.jpg

It says rated at 335 hp.

[Guido36]

I believe it was - at least in theory - offered by Shelby in two guises, with a 4bbl and rated at 260 hp and with more agressive solid lifter cam, higher compression and the aforementioned 58mm Weber equipped crossram as seen on XHP 260-2, at 335 hp. CSX 2000 still has it's XHP 4bbl and I have also seen photos of 260 XHP-8 as originally fitted to CSX 2001 and raced by Billy Krause. How many of the other 75 260 powered Cobras were fitted with XHP 260s and were there any aluminum blocks among them? Were there any other Weber cross ram equipped cars other than engine XHP 260-5 and was this engine fitted to a Cobra - if so, which CSX number?

For a number of years I owned an aluminum block 289 based de Tomaso engine with Gurney Weslake type heads which considerably pre dated even the earliest GW. This was reputedly one of three such engines, the other two being in the de Tomaso P70 and Sport 5000 from 1964. This was at the time that CS was collaborating with Alejandro and had Pete Brock draw up the design for these two prototypes as a potential replacement for the aging Cooper Monaco/King Cobras. CS had provided the engines or at least the aluminum blocks to Alejandro. I strongly suspect that Harry Weslake designed and supplied the heads to de Tomaso. I will attempt to post up photos I took of my engine (which came to me from Colin Chapman at Lotus from a stillborn Lotus Can Am project) during the 1970s when I figure out why I am getting failed upload messages.

[MAStuart]

I believe a member on this forum. Barry something has a leaf sprung cobra with a De tomaso headed engine in his car. I cant remember the story behind it but I think he decribed the heads as being like the ones you posted about in another post. I think he is in the Chicago land area .

Mark

Here you go! colin Comers book Cobra 50 Years

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by Guido36

engine XHP 260-5 and was this engine fitted to a Cobra

Engine XHP-260-5 was fitted into a very early Cobra, one so early that it still used an AC Greyhound radiator. A picture of the engine bay day one has been featured in Hot Rod Magazine. When first installed it was like the other XHP-260s from Ford with a Ford 4100 carburetor. There are few pictures of an odd Holley in use on CSX2002 and another early Cobra but I believe Shelby’s works installed them. They appear to be prototypes also. I have hunted very hard for years trying to document those odd Holley assemblies. The main assemblies, body to bowls, are like several 1957-58 models Thunberbirds used. The throttle plate sub assemblies are like a 1960s Ford production car.

Dan

PS. In later years, especially 1964 through 1969, Shelby’s works used quite a few non-production Holley carburetors. Some were modified specials by the Shelby works but most were contracted to the Holley custom shop. If Holley did the work their identification number will be stamped on the main body.

[alexopm]

Hi Guido. I believe the engine you purchased from Chapman was not a Ford 289. I believe that was the one and only V8 casted and built by De Tomaso for the Can Am project with Chapman. Pete Coltrin documented the project very well for Road & Track. The block design was very close to the 289 (on which it was based), but it was a full De Tomaso design (I have some blue prints of it). Do you know where the engine is now?

[Guido36]

Mark - you are absolutely right. Those are the same heads on an iron block in your link.

As far as I know the de Tomaso P70 had an all aluminum engine and this may have been the engine in the de Tomaso Museum, but the Sport 5000 showed up in California a couple of years ago with these heads on an iron block engine. I am still getting upload failures on the photos even though they are all within the acceptable .jpg size limits. But if you click on the links below you should be able to view them in my Photobucket album. These photos show my all aluminum engine ca 1978/79. It certainly looks all the business! I spoke with Pete Brock about this a few years ago and he remembered the all aluminum engines from his work on the P70.

What I am trying to discover is whether this was the same or similar block as 1963 Ford Indy pushrod engine with the four transverse mounted Weber 48 IDAs as driven by Dan Gurney. I am also interested in finding information on the XHP 260 aluminum blocks and the 289 aluminum blocks.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...f.jpg~original

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...a.jpg~original

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...3.jpg~original

[Jac Mac]

The heads in pics posted by Mark do not have provision for the two extra cyl head bolts per cyl that the Indy 260 alloy block was cast with, so these should/must be another alloy block casting based on the factory 260 block if these engines were as you describe.
Note also the cresent shaped coolant transfer passage which also suggests the block would be based on early production 260 ford block as IIRC the Indy car blocks were dry decked with circular (O-Ring) for coolant transfer.

[Guido36]

The external oil pump is one thing that sticks out on this block - literally! Did any of the 260 and 289 aluminum blocks have an external oil pump? Maybe this is something for the GT40 experts?

What is clearly stated in several articles on the P70 is that Shelby supplied de Tomaso with the engines before he withdrew from the development, but not until after he had dispatched Pete Brock to Italy to work with Medardo Fantuzzi to rework the unsatisfactory first Italian attempt at translating the Brock design from paper into full scale aluminum.

Does anyone have any history on the 260 and early 289 aluminum blocks?

[Jac Mac]

These pics from links on your thread create more questions. In your side view of the alloy block and heads it has the extra head bolts and notice that beside each exh port it has a longer stud ala 351c wheras the pic from link by Mark S has no extra studs and short ( normal ) type SBF outer row of studs.
Re-read chapter in Des Hammill book, it appears that there might have been two or more evolutions of the early pushrod Alloy Indy block, but in saying that the castings of block in your pics have a more 'european' appearance. If you disassembled that block did it have provision for wills & O-rings at deck surface, or just flat for conventional gaskets.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by Guido36

Having searched this site and the web in general there seems to be little information on the XHP 260 -

All the known that I can document XHP-260 and HP260 engine blocks are cast iron; I have documented one XHP-260 casting and two different ones used in HP260s. The various versions of cylinder heads on XHP-260 and HP260 engines in Cobras have been cast iron also. From my Weber/Cobra database the cross ram system was designed and built by Shelby's team. Legend says it was too complicated to make and difficult to tune compared to the benefits. The prototype side draft and three prototype down draft systems are included in evaluations that I have documented in some way or another. The side draft design was abandoned. CSX2043 used #3 of 3 down draft prototype systems., I owned that 3 of 3 system for a few years but now it resides in an early Cobra again.

(2023 update. Ford wrote that fifteen (15) each XHP-260 engines were handmade.) At the time Falcon rally cars were being raced by Holman-Moody. The highest serial number that I have found recorded in period is fourteen (14). Based on published information serial numbers 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, and 14 were installed in very early Cobras.


XHP-260 Engine #4 survives to this day in unrestored form. It was carefully dismantled, extensively photographed, analyzed dimensionally (things like camshaft details), reassembled and shown in public on a display stand a few years ago by Bob Mannel. The engine block was originally stamped serial number 2 but was changed to number 4. Many of the internal small parts are engineering specials and some appear to have been made one at a time on a lathe or mill. All the handmade prototype parts carried individual serial numbers in that engine, not for the engine assembly but for the parts themselves. It is an interesting engine. The effort to document what was in engine four was a three way arrangement among the owner of the engine, me, and Bob Mannel who did all the work. Whenever Bob updates his engine book this engine is to be included.


There isn’t much in comparison between a XHP-260 with very many engineering special parts and an almost production HP260. The information around indicates that Ford was planning to offer HP260 engines in Falcons. The European rally cars used HP260s and Dearborn Steel Tube outfitted a Falcon for testing as a production ready test car but the release of the HP289 engines ended all of that apparently.


Specific details of what was in engine 4 are way too long to include in a web post, certainly the dozens of close up pictures wouldn’t fit.

Dan

[alexopm]

Originally Posted by Dan Case

All the known that I can document XHP-260 and HP260 engine blocks are cast iron; I have documented one XHP-260 casting and two different ones used in HP260s. The various versions of cylinder heads on XHP-260 and HP260 engines in Cobras have been cast iron also. From my Weber/Cobra database the cross ram system was designed and built by Shelby's team. Legend says it was too complicated to make and difficult to tune compared to the benefits. The prototype side draft and three prototype down draft systems are included in evaluations that I have documented in some way or another. The side draft design was abandoned. CSX2043 used #3 of 3 down draft prototype systems., I owned that 3 of 3 system for a few years but now it resides in an early Cobra again.

I have no idea how many XHP-260 engines were made by Ford but CS probably wasn’t the only one to get them. At the time Falcon rally cars were being raced by Holman-Moody. The highest serial number that I have found recorded in period is fourteen (14). Based on published information serial numbers 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, and 14 were installed in very early Cobras.


XHP-260 Engine #4 survives to this day in unrestored form. It was carefully dismantled, extensively photographed, analyzed dimensionally (things like camshaft details), reassembled and shown in public on a display stand a few years ago by Bob Mannel. The engine block was originally stamped serial number 2 but was changed to number 4. Many of the internal small parts are engineering specials and some appear to have been made one at a time on a lathe or mill. All the handmade prototype parts carried individual serial numbers in that engine, not for the engine assembly but for the parts themselves. It is an interesting engine. The effort to document what was in engine four was a three way arrangement among the owner of the engine, me, and Bob Mannel who did all the work. Whenever Bob updates his engine book this engine is to be included.


There isn’t much in comparison between a XHP-260 with very many engineering special parts and an almost production HP260. The information around indicates that Ford was planning to offer HP260 engines in Falcons. The European rally cars used HP260s and Dearborn Steel Tube outfitted a Falcon for testing as a production ready test car but the release of the HP289 engines ended all of that apparently.


Specific details of what was in engine 4 are way too long to include in a web post, certainly the dozens of close up pictures wouldn’t fit.

Dan

PS. There might be a clue to how many XHP-260 engines were made in a “day two” picture of CSX2000 and engine XHP-260-1 in it. The earliest photo of XHP-260-1 being installed in the car that I have seen published shows a vacuum advance ignition distributor with vacuum line installed. Pictures taken not long after show a fully mechanical distributor. The Ford engineering stickers on the second dizzy calls out an experimental engineering assembly number and that it is unit number 6 of 35. We will probably never know for sure.

Hi Dan. XHP 260 -4 was fitted in the De Tomaso Intercontinental/Formula Libre car that was purchased by John Mecom Jr in 1963. There are pictures of the engine in the car during a photo shoot in Modena, before shipping it to the USA. This was before the P70 project. Mecom didn´t use the car beyond some testing, and it was later sold to Bill Frank, who raced it with a 3 litre engine. I don´t know when #4 was removed from it (if before or after the purchase.

[Dominik]

Dan Case is typically your best resource. I had a similar inquiry for an aluminium block Chevy Small block. As it happened I bought this book, and the author confirmed:

Chevrolet-racing ...?: Fourteen years of raucous silence!! Hardcover – January 1, 1972
by Paul Van Valkenburgh

Same book MIGHT mention Ford as well, being the competition in those days. But I cannot access it for a few months.

A good read either way, just a bit pricey on Amazon.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by alexopm

Hi Dan. XHP 260 -4 was fitted in the De Tomaso Intercontinental/Formula Libre car that was purchased by John Mecom Jr in 1963. ...

There must be some explanation. Perhaps HP260 (semi-production High Performance 260) number 4 is the engine you discuss as the history of XHP-260-4 (Ford engineering Experimental High Performance 260 serial 4) is very well known. There was also an XHP-260-14 but it was documented as going into a new Cobra.

Bob Mannel was good enough to slowly dismantle, gently clean, and do a reverse engineering study on engine XHP-260-4 for me and the engine’s owner years ago. Bob’s analysis has been on public display before and is published.

At the time the study was undertaken I was only moderately sure which new Cobra received engine XHP-260-4 in 1962. I am as sure as I can be now of which Cobra received it without some kind of new car documentation; which I have not found so far. I will not share my educated speculation without some factory documentation to back it up.

The image below of one of the show boards displayed in public with the engine after Bob’s study. It covers mid-1962 through the time the study was done. We even know who talked the Ferrari owner into replacing the Cobra engine with a Ferrari one in the 1990s.




This next image is from a set taken after Bob finished his engineering study. He reassembled the engine without refinishing it. The Ford generator and ancillaries are not Cobra correct but I failed to find and original alternator and hardware as supplied by A.C. Cars Ltd for the engine in the Cobra; I still have not but I have still not given up. Bob installed the Ford charging system parts just to have something for his display at a national car event. Reproduction early Cobra specific parts are available but unrestored original parts are more desirable. The odd colors of paint on harmonic balancer and cylinder heads are their original paint. The hand lettered XHP-260-4 on each rocker arm cover is the original lettering from 1962. (The log book and engineering files numbers along with the serial number were hand stamped on the block consistent the other XHP-260 engines we know about.)





XHP-260 engines were made with mostly handmade experimental small parts and most experimental parts were marked with a serial number. Even carburetor base gaskets were custom and marked with engineering information. The only ‘production’ parts in the entire cylinder head assemblies and valve train drive were a modified cam gear (to change timing), cam gear fixing hardware, and a stock timing chain. None of the special parts unique to the engine ever made it to Ford production.

HP260 engines were in Ford Motor Company’s words “semi-production” engines. Not much was shared from the previous XHP-260 model.


There were several types of cast iron blocks and heads 260 c.i.d. Ford Fairlane engines:
Ford Fairlane 260 2V announced as an available option February 17, 1962.
Experimental High Performance 260 4V 1962
High Performance 260 4V 1962
Ford Industrial 260 2V
Ford Industrial 260 2V (Sunbeam Tiger)
Ford Marine 260

All these "iron" engines in long block form would look very much alike if all were painted the same color. All these assembly versions were different and quite a few companies bought and used them new here and in Europe. Cobras did not get sent out with aluminum engines. (SAAC has published that an INDY 255 was installed for one race in one Shelby team Cobra but it quickly failed and no further trials were attempted with aluminum engines in Cobras.)

I would like to see the pictures you mention. Could you be talking about an ultra rare 255 c.i.d. V8 pushrod "INDY" Ford with aluminum block and heads? I have read that only ten were made and that only three are known in running condition this century.


http://www.wrljet.com/fordv8/indy.html

[1795]

Does Craig still have the engine? I may text him and ask. Sounds interesting. There are a lot of things that never get far beyond the testing phase.

Jim

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by 1795

Does Craig still have the engine? I may text him and ask. Sounds interesting. There are a lot of things that never get far beyond the testing phase.

Jim

I have not checked in a while. I still hope to confirm the Cobra it came out of.

[Guido36]

On the Ultimatecarpage.com specifications for CSX2000 Wouter Melissen lists the Ford XHP-260 engine as having "alloy block and head". In the only engine compartment shot on their site the XHP-260-5 engine and intake are painted black. When I was at the Shelby Museum in Las Vegas they politely but firmly declined to open the hood of CSX2000 despite my asking very nicely! So I have never seen the engine in person. The 1967 Shelby T10 King Cobra is also listed on the same website as having an "aluminium" block and heads of 351.9 ci or 5766cc.

The following segment from the ultimatecarpage.com description of the Ford GT40 "AM lightweight"

"Bailey's chassis design closely followed that of the Lola Mk VI GT with the initially used aluminium replaced by steel for additional durability. Broadley was not very happy with the added weight, but Ford felt it was necessary to cope with the heavy and powerful engines proposed for the new car. The all aluminium, dry-sump Ford Fairlane engine was also carried over from the Lola. In good American tradition, this V8 featured a central camshaft with push-rod operated overhead valves. It was intended to be used as a stop-gap until a four-cam version would become available. In later years one of these Indy-racing derived engines was indeed fitted, but the racing and production cars all featured OHV engines. The Fairlane engine displaced just under 4.2 litres and produced a decent 350 bhp. It was mated to a Colotti four speed gearbox." Now I do not necessarily accept all of this as completely accurate but what I am trying to find out is whether there were in fact any XHP-260 aluminum engines or blocks - Cobra or Fairlane and which cars had the aluminum 289 fitted. I have heard for many years that some of the GT40s had aluminum blocks.

On the Bill Lewis website it also mentions developing an aluminum 260 block which was used as the basis of the 1963 Ford pushrod engine for Indy. This is very specific and detailed about the development of the aluminum 260 and worth a read. Indy Engines -- The Ford V-8 Engine Workshop

So my questions remain - did Ford build aluminum XHP-260 blocks and what cars were they installed in, Cobras and/or other cars such as racing Fairlanes? Similarly, which cars had aluminum 289 blocks?

[Dan Case]

PM sent.

[DMXF]

Guido36, first of all whatever Wouter Melissen states on that site is tainted by his use of the word "alloy". While some people associate it with meaning aluminum, look up the definition, alloy simply means there is a mixture of different constituents in the metal. Steels are made in different alloys.

The first GT40(s) in '64 were fitted with the all aluminum Indy engine, which is different in virtually every aspect from the engines installed in Cobras. When Shelby was given the responsibility for fielding the GT40's, as part of his changes he pulled those engines and installed his cast iron Cobra units.