Cammer parts.

[Barry_R]

On a completely separate note. I will be glad to take those unrepairable and unusable heads and provide some level of cost recovery.

I will have John Marcella here in Detroit (do a Google search on him...) weld them up into something very, very usable and radical that you'll end up reading about in the magazines. There is absolutely nothing made from aluminum that he cannot repair. On some parts the cost outweighs the benefit - but a pair of Cammer heads would justify his time, and the level of work required on these simply pales in comparison to the stuff he often take on.

[damage]

Just to give a fair comparison this is a valve from the left side which clearly shows just the point of contact when the chain broke.



Note that the valve is not marked a full 360 degrees.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by Barry_R

On a completely separate note. I will be glad to take those unrepairable and unusable heads and provide some level of cost recovery.

I will have John Marcella here in Detroit (do a Google search on him...) weld them up into something very, very usable and radical that you'll end up reading about in the magazines. There is absolutely nothing made from aluminum that he cannot repair. On some parts the cost outweighs the benefit - but a pair of Cammer heads would justify his time, and the level of work required on these simply pales in comparison to the stuff he often take on.

Thank you for the great explanation. Here is the question I think most of us reading this thread would like to know. Knowing the issues with these engines, why would you build an engine for a customer...not located in the USA on top of it...if you know there are issues? Do you warn them in writing before taking their money they have no warranty, or do you just build it, hope there isn't a problem, then if one appears, try to blame somebody/something else?

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by joyridin'

Thank you for the great explanation. Here is the question I think most of us reading this thread would like to know. Knowing the issues with these engines, why would you build an engine for a customer...not located in the USA on top of it...if you know there are issues? Do you warn them in writing before taking their money they have no warranty, or do you just build it, hope there isn't a problem, then if one appears, try to blame somebody/something else?

That probably doesn't deserve a response, Barry didn't build the engine so why make it his problem or imply he operates the way your mind has conjured up how KC operates?

Does anyone actually believe damage, a guy who digs into every detail, dropped $60K on a motor build and didn't discuss with Keith what parts would be used? Not a chance period.

Barry, thanks for sharing your knowledge and educating some of us including David Kirkham on the finer nuances of cammer builds and problems. There's no substitute for hands-on experience. It always amazes me how bogus facts are presented with such conviction as to not question the veracity of those facts.
Joe

[damage]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

That probably doesn't deserve a response, Barry didn't build the engine so why make it his problem or imply he operates the way your mind has conjured up how KC operates?

Does anyone actually believe damage, a guy who digs into every detail, dropped $60K on a motor build and didn't discuss with Keith what parts would be used? Not a chance period.

Barry, thanks for sharing your knowledge and educating some of us including David Kirkham on the finer nuances of cammer builds and problems. There's no substitute for hands-on experience. It always amazes me how bogus facts are presented with such conviction as to not question the veracity of those facts.
Joe

Not sure what you are stating as being bogus.

I asked some questions and they are yet to be answered.

As far as your comment about the engine is concerned your assumption is incorrect, I didn't ask about the engine other then how much.

Should I really need to ask if the engine builder who is being backed by some people on here as one of Americas best if he uses substandard parts?

[Barry_R]

I can comment on some things. Since I was not there, and was not involved in any way I am only equal to the rest of us - I am a spectator with no skin in the game.

The valve contact - I can see why you would get the impression that the valves rotate from viewing those parts. Its more a matter of the where/when/how they contacted the piston though. Once a valve gets hit the first time it is no longer flat and every subsequent contact can move it, spin it, fold it and mutilate it. There is simply no functional design element that causes a valve to rotate in operation beyond the nominal "scrub" from the spring.

As to the Coon heads I can only repeat my personal experience. My experience with the heads has been acceptable, my experience with the man behind them is challenging. I know that Jay has had a significant personality and legal conflict with Coon and that may color the tone of his discussions.

As for the component selection - I can only restate that we do not have enough repetitive experience to say "those parts always work, but those always break" on Cammer motors. We all use a small selection of parts from a very limited line of suppliers and while we are developing, the pace is slow in comparison to high volume builds.

The business situation and relationship between the various parties and how they handle it is none of my damned business.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

As to the Coon heads I can only repeat my personal experience. My experience with the heads has been acceptable, my experience with the man behind them is challenging. I know that Jay has had a significant personality and legal conflict with Coon and that may color the tone of his discussions.

I agree. I would find it difficult to be impartial if I had to file a lawsuit and win a court judgement in order to get the defendant to honor their contract to deliver quality parts in a timely manner.

The main point that I'm trying to make is that a certain unknown % of Cammer heads had porosity issues dating back years. And Damage had an engine built in late 2014 with Coon Cammer heads that had porosity issues.

I'm not a metallurgist, so here's my question. If Damage's engine builder took delivery of Cammer heads from Mr. Coon and then subsequently the engine builder built the heads for a Damage's Cammer engine, is there somewhere in that entire process where porosity is checked?

I do realize that the Cammer chain drive broke and that the engine builder felt "less than satisfied" using it in his engine, but that's what was available at the time. The counter to that position is that if you feel uncomfortable sending something out the door, then you shouldn't send it out the door.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

That probably doesn't deserve a response, Barry didn't build the engine so why make it his problem or imply he operates the way your mind has conjured up how KC operates?

Does anyone actually believe damage, a guy who digs into every detail, dropped $60K on a motor build and didn't discuss with Keith what parts would be used? Not a chance period.

Barry, thanks for sharing your knowledge and educating some of us including David Kirkham on the finer nuances of cammer builds and problems. There's no substitute for hands-on experience. It always amazes me how bogus facts are presented with such conviction as to not question the veracity of those facts.
Joe

I wasn't asking him to comment on how KC operates. I was asking for his opinion on how he handles building one of these engines. He just gave us a detailed briefing describing the issues. I am curious as to how they handle a sale. It is reasonably obvious by now at least on the engine being discussed how KC handles it. If engines are being sold "without warranty", then paying $60k for a 40 mile trip was an expensive endeavor. I would hope that "let the buyer beware" isn't the standard practice.

And BTW..I do not need to "conjure" up anything. The proof is in the pudding. If you choose to ignore the obvious, then you seem to be the one with issues.

[jhv48]

Maybe I missed something here but I can understand why KC is getting a little bent.

If this happened to me, I would be mad as hell too. However, after communicating with the builder, I would simply pull the engine and ship it back to KC and let him honor his warranty (as he has stated he would do). Obviously Damage has the financial resources to do just that.

If I bought a Ford crate engine and it imploded during the warranty period, they would probably ask me to crate it up and send it back to them for analysis and repair.

If you send it back to KC and he fixes it, you will get a new engine with a new warranty on it. If he just sends you the parts and you or someone else rebuilds it and then it grenades again, who's going to honor the warranty. It won't be KC.

I feel for both parties. No winner here. Is there a reason Damage doesn't want to send the engine back? Did I miss something? Won't be the first time.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by jhv48

I feel for both parties. No winner here. Is there a reason Damage doesn't want to send the engine back? Did I miss something? Won't be the first time.

Damage mentioned earlier that the cost to ship his Cammer engine from Australia back to the US was cost prohibitive. Also, he felt more comfortable rebuilding the engine this time around. He just wanted the parts to fix it himself.

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Damage mentioned earlier that the cost to ship his Cammer engine from Australia back to the US was cost prohibitive. Also, he felt more comfortable rebuilding the engine this time around. He just wanted the parts to fix it himself.

So, it's cost prohibitive to ship a complete engine to the States, but cost and time efficient to try and amass all the parts and pay for all the labor necessary to rebuild the engine? And you expect KC to send you all the parts you say you need to complete the job? I don't know any engine builder that would go for that deal. I've never met KC, but he has offered to fix the engine. Just send it to him. I can't think of a single engine company that would send out parts to fix a warranty issue unless an authorized agent did the teardown and was going to install the parts.

It seems to me that it would be far cheaper to bite the little bullet (pay for shipping the engine back to the states and let KC fix it and ship it back) than to
try and gather all the parts together and do it yourself. You can be damn sure he's going to upgrade the heads to Pond heads and install the best chain he can find. Knowing his reputation, he won't reuse any part (pistons, valves, etc.) that has any sign of damage or wear and tear. And then, you get another warranty.

Build it yourself and you eliminate KC from the equation (making him extremely happy) and quite possibly you could lose your $60,000 engine in another 40 miles and have no recourse whatsoever.

**** happens. Luckily you (Damage) have substantial resources to remedy the situation. Return the engine and let KC fix it.

[Buzz]

It's unquestionable that one needs to be sympathetic to Damage's situation - dream build, big bucks for the ultimate engine, etc. In fairness, however, consider the scenario from Keith Craft's point of view: He wants the engine back so he can tear it down and conduct his own inspection to determine exactly what happened and what needs to be done to repair it.

As things stand, he is forced to accept the opinions of others dabbling in his field of established expertise who openly imply that his work was suspect, and concede to ship the requested parts on their say-so. That has to be difficult and self-incriminating to accept.

Keith has years of builds under his belt to give him the confidence that no one is better qualified than himself to conduct the forensics and fixes but Damage, understandably based on this experience probably doesn't agree; and on top of it all there's the issue of justifying the shipping costs. Perhaps the solution lies in some sort of compromise in sharing the cost of shipping, or just sending the heads - I don't know. What's painfully obvious is that it's a bad situation for all involved and I for one feel for both sides.