Paging Naja !

Back in Black · #1 (**permalink**) 08-12-2002, 01:22 PM

Your motor looks awesome, can you tell us if it is running yet, and what HP and torque you estimate?

Very similar to my motor, but a bit larger displacement, can you tell us what estimated HP and torque are?

How does she run?

Naja's motor:
http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/index.php?photo=2675

Naja · #2 (**permalink**) 08-12-2002, 09:32 PM

Oh, it's been running for 8 months (minus considerable time in the shop(s)), but it got torn down after the first 30 miles (see my water pump threads).

We're getting there. My EFI guru is no longer available - job change; not making himself available to do the fine tuning on the programming. But it is running decently. The guys at Texas World Speedway and Mid-America Challenge (Hearland - Topeka) thought it sounded pretty good on the straightaway at 120.

Don't have to estimate hp or torque. It dyno'd at 491 hp at 5200 rpm, and 548 fp at 4700. We were kind of disappointed until we considered that the Torker II intake is a significant restriction. We previously did some work on the new Edelbrock heads to bring them up to 'spec' for a 533 ci engine (with the .662 i/e roller cam), but didn't do too much with the manifold. We figured it wouldn't make a lot of difference because it is not a high rise and there is only 'so much' that you can work with. We built the engine for torque, reliability and highway cruising, anyway. The Torker II is good for that.

I wanted the injected 58mm Webers (from TWM), but they were not in production when I had to get something. With that setup on the engine, we would get the 700 fp that we were hoping for (and let the hp come as it may - say 650 (?)). True to an injected stroker, the torque curve rises very sharply. They only began the data logging at 2600 rpm, but by that point, the engine was already doing 525 fp.

I didn't want to mess with the scoop (I like the proportions of it just like it is), so the Torker II was the only combo that I could fit under the hood (the TWM induction would have fit, also).

We've done a little fine tuning with the program. After I get my wife to feel comfortable driving the car (she hasn't driven it, yet), I will see about doing the rest of the fine tuning myself, now that I got someone to let me know what to do. There is another experienced fellow in the area that I want to get with to have him explain some of the finer points of messing with the parameters.

I've just been 'wrastling' with the overheating problems, so that I can drive it under most any situation for as long as I want. I think that I am about there, but I want to try a couple of things (like getting the 'correct' water pump speed) to give myself a little cushion.

Regards,
Frank

Back in Black · #3 (**permalink**) 08-13-2002, 01:29 PM

It was of course, the same situation you have, RE: scoop height...no room for the victor Jr. that came with the 514.

I have the Holley 1000 cfm throttle body, and the 36 lb injectors...one thing that interested me is the pressure/flowrating for your injectors, it is almost 2 x mine!

I am hoping to get over 600 raw HP out of this combo, since without the EFI it rates +~600 HP.

My car goes in for final paint on Wednesday

Naja · #4 (**permalink**) 08-13-2002, 02:30 PM

Well, with the CobraJet heads (have they been worked on ? - I would presume that Ford respecs them for the 514 since they carry the "C" code rather than the "B" code of the 460 ci bracket engines), the Torker II, the 'healthy' .647 cam, 1000 cfm throttle body, I'll be interested to see what you get. I'm supposing that the Victor, Jr. makes a whale of a difference in the output, though! And, without the Victor, Jr., the cam may not be very well matched to the manifold. Edelbrock has a much tamer cam for their Torker combo than for the Victor combo - as one might expect, but they have also optimized the synergy between the two. (If the results aren't quite what you expect, I think the answer will be in these factors).

I hope you don't have a problem with the injectors 'burning out' from excessive duty cycle. The guy who put my setup together specializes in 5.0 liter Mustangs (specifically to 348 ci, and either turbocharged or supercharged), and he puts 48 lb injectors in those engines. (Although with twin turbo engines he has put as large as 96 lb injectors in them). My recollection is that the standard formula for sizing injectors indicated that I should have around 48 lb injectors. Since you are not that much smaller than me, I would guess that 36 lb injectors are way too small, and that when you open it up, they will be 'stuck' open (and, hence, burn out the electronics). My guru said that he NEVER wants to see a duty cycle above 80%; therefore, he goes to the next size larger than what the formula says. My fuel pressure is (the standard) 45 psi. If you run a higher pressure, you may be able to compensate for the smaller injectors, but the higher pressure also carries with it a much higher risk of leaks and fires.

I really hope things go well. You never really know what you might get when you start deviating from the standard (like we have).

Regards,
Frank

Tom Wells · #5 (**permalink**) 08-13-2002, 02:44 PM

Hi Frank,

It looks as though I'm starting down the yellow brick Holley MPFI road using much the same stuff as BiB.

The Holley site is rather clear about injector size: 36 LB for 550-650 hp max. They also use a pretty big throttle body - 1000cfm, so there's another potential question.

I kinda wanted to wait until BiB got his engine going before starting to put mine together, but this Demon is giving me a fit!

I also intend to use the Torker II. Need to find one now and get started. Hood scoop does NOT need to go any higher.

By the way if you get near DC let me know. We've had eleven Cobras at each of the two most recent Saturday morning breakfast "grease-ups" - you'd be welcome I'm sure.

Regards,

Tom

Back in Black · #6 (**permalink**) 08-13-2002, 06:17 PM

NAJA, do you suggest that they might need matching to the torker 2 ?

The 36 lb injectors were exactly as Tom said, the recommended units for this HP motor. At this point I am going to try them and see what happens... will know soon

Naja · #7 (**permalink**) 08-14-2002, 06:39 AM

Maybe the Holley people (hopefully based on much experience) feel that the 36 lb injectors are OK, and maybe they will be. My guy was just very adament about slightly oversizing (several times when I discussed it with him). If they are right, then OK; if they are wrong, then you'll fry the injector actuators.

Another thing that I just thought about. The cam for the crate motors probably has a 106 degree lobe separation (standard lobe separation for carbureted engines). For EFI, the lobe separation needs to be 112 to 114 degrees to preclude raw fuel from 'short circuiting' through the cylinder chamber and destroying the sensor element in the wide band O2 sensor. Maybe EFI with a chip can get by without the wider lobe separation because the program is set and deviations from the program should be minimal, but the whole purpose of the programmable ECUs is based upon being able to vary the parameters, then have the actual running conditions compared to those parameters to make adjustments. The O2 sensor is probably the most important sensor to accomplish that task.

It's my (limited) understanding that the two most closely related parts of the engine (needing to be matched for optimal performance) are the intake manifold and cam. The 514 has a cam matched to the Victor Jr. intake. The Torker II is (radically) different from the Victor Jr. So, you have a 'racing' cam matched to a 'family sedan' (in all reality) intake manifold in your current setup(s).

Just more food for thought.

Regards,
Frank

Tom Wells · #8 (**permalink**) 08-14-2002, 07:21 AM

Hi Frank,

Interesting.

I have replaced the cam. The lobe separation on the hydraulic roller (P/N 359351) from Crane is 114 degrees.

So even a blind hog can sometimes find an acorn

Now to find a Torker II and get going!

Regards,

Tom

Back in Black · #9 (**permalink**) 08-14-2002, 08:52 AM

I have notified Vern at west coast about this thread, so he can be fully informed.

I am not sure just how much leeway we will have in the final laptop on-the-road programming, and if that will compensate for the lobe differences. if not, then I will need as new cam also.

Are you guys going to use a lap top computer, to fine tune your units on-the-road?

Naja · #10 (**permalink**) 08-14-2002, 11:05 AM

As far as programming, that is why I went to some effort to try to find someone who has considerable experience at this sort of thing. Unfortunately, my guy changed jobs (or changed to a job where he is no longer the boss and owner) and is, basically, no longer available to me.
Someone that knows what they are doing (particularly on the brand of system that you have) can pre-program the computer, then, when (if) the engine is dyno'd can do some finer tuning on the course tune, then work on getting the starting/cold running parameters working well, then do some final fine tuning. Some like to do the latter on the road, while others prefer to do it on a chassis dyno. I am at the last stage.

If you are 'shooting in the dark', it may take quite a while, or, at worst, you could damage something. I have seen a thread (6-18 months ago) from a guy who was doing his own programming/tuning. He finally got it to run OK, but it appears that he probably 'went through hell and back'.

My advise is to get with someone who has quite a bit of experience with it and let them do it - saves a lot of time and worry, and, may not cost too much (couple of hundred $$).

I just made contact with another guy who is experienced with the SpeedPro units that has a shop a lot closer to my residence than my original guru. He prefers to use the chassis dyno. He thought that it would only be about $100 to do the final tuning since I am running pretty good right now.

The people who seem most likely to do this sort of thing are the ones that 'specialize' in the high performance Mustangs. In the Mustangs they usually put a supercharger or turbocharger on their modified 5.0s, but some of them do a lot of EFI applications with their cars, and you may find someone that keys in on your brand (Holley, or whatever).

I don't think that you can compensate for 'mismatched' cam/manifold. You can optimize the programming for your setup, but the setup may have some inherent flaws that cannot be corrected beyond a certain point. Everything is relative with these cars, anyway. (So what if you only get 500 hp. It's still a beast!).

So far, all of my programming has been static except for the last one where we were running around an industrial park. The more 'major' problems (and they weren't too bad) were corrected, but the real fine tuning takes at least a couple of hours on the road (by someone who is proficient at it). Since you can 'instantly' change to different performance characteristics on a chassis dyno, it should take far less time to do what is needed. But, I'm not entirely sure if a chassis dyno is 100% equivalent to an actual road test - haven't really talked to anyone about it. I figure that if it is not, I would be 99.9% tuned rather than 99.95% tuned (or a chassis dyno tune may be better - ???). But for the applications I intend for the car, whatever I get should be plenty good. I figure that I am 95-98% tuned, now, but I know that I will have some cold weather (that's less than 50 degrees in Houston) starting program revisions to do when the time comes. I had difficulties early this year.

I want to learn how to do the programming/tuning, but I think I can do that and get things to where they should be a lot faster if I let someone else do it, watch them, ask questions, then play with it a little afterwards. I want to be able to remedy a problem myself if I am out 'on the road' and something begins to act weird.

I've been trying to get ahold of Vern for several days. I thought he might be 'on holiday' before school starts, or both of them gone to deliver a car. He never seems to answer my messages or e-mails. If you talk to him soon, let him know that I have a couple of questions for him.

Hope some of this info has been helpful (or got you to look into some things more closely). I can't say that you will have troubles if you continue on your present course(s), but I don't mind passing along some info that I have gleaned from my journey along this 'not so well beaten path'.

Regards,
Frank

Back in Black · #11 (**permalink**) 08-14-2002, 11:32 AM

And he likely is working too much to answer the phone...or spend much time on e-mails right now...

Vern has a programmer from one of the big 3, to program the unit on-the-road...this is a blessing, and should solve the dilemna, for me at least. Time will tell how much HP we get, but I bet I don't lose too much... the EFI should increase potential HP,...or at least I can hope..

Naja · #12 (**permalink**) 08-14-2002, 11:45 AM

But Sandra isn't answering the phone, either.

Back in Black · #13 (**permalink**) 01-29-2003, 07:23 AM

But I am going to try 65 lb injectors for startup tuning, at the recommendation of several folks with similar experience to yours, Naja. Have to break her in first with the demon carb.. (maybe 2K miles) what a monster she is ! 1/2 throttle with the revs already over 3K, and the tires break loose on dry pavement (they are nearly 1 foot wide)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A small bit of oil is dribbling out of my valve cover breather caps, I gotta find the thread here on CC which had some solutions.. I think it is the Ford Motorsports breather caps that need to be retired early (sorta like not making it thru probation on a new job

)

Naja · #14 (**permalink**) 02-04-2003, 06:15 PM

Steven -
My valve cover breathers leak a little, too. I placed both of mine
to the rear for appearance sake. They are Billet Specialties (to match the pattern on the valve covers - the only ones I could find with any kind of a linear pattern). They only leak during "high performance driving", so I suspect that even though I have a baffle plate beneath them (the ones that come with the Motorsport high rise covers), the oil still get sloshed by g's and centrifugal forces against the rear of the covers and then out through the breather holes. You might have the same situation. I'm not too worried about it.

Back in Black · #15 (**permalink**) 02-05-2003, 09:06 AM

Do you have a PCV system ? You really need one to relieve the slight (maybe 1 or 2 PSI ) pressurization in the crankcase... what you want is a rotation of gasses IN from the driver's side Breather, thru the motor, and then OUT a PCV valve system where your current passenger side breather is...everything is right on your motor, from what I have read, excepting that the passenger side needs, instead of a simple breather, a PCV system to return to the carb base, or as I intend, to a specially drilled and tapped intake port in the upper intake manifold... here is the guy/business that can make this all look trick:

http://performanceunlimited.com/cobr...breathers.html

They sell a PCV valve built into a billet aluminum breather, looks trick.. I have a matching breather for the drivers side coming too, ( both breather/pcv units have extra internal baffling to cut oil "dribble") and also coming.. complete (PCV return line to intake) SS line with AN fittings installed.. ready to install...will include pics in my photo gallery of the process and final look..

Performance Unlimited will be happy to respond to your e-mail or phone call, and I spent 15 minutes on the phone with them and got the lowdown on how to safely drill and tap my finished and installed intake, without metal fragments in my cylinders...you may have an existing way to route the PCV gasses, especially if a simple hose will work.. mine is all SS lines and AN fittings.

Naja · #16 (**permalink**) 02-09-2003, 07:34 PM

Steven -
The guy that set up my EFI system said that he never puts the PVC system on the motor unless it absolutely has to have one for state emission law reasons. So, most of his builds don't have it, and since mine (was going to and ...) has been titled as a '67, the emission requirements don't apply, and, he didn't install the PVC system. (We talked about what he would do if he HAD to do it, and he talked about the same options you mentioned.
Regards,
Frank

Turk · #17 (**permalink**) 02-09-2003, 08:05 PM

BAck in Black,

How much computing power do you need to run a EFI system. Can a notebook do it, or do you have to run a Pentium IV ( A desktop).
I know so little about the EFI system,and you guys start talking ram, and PCs , it just scares me?

A inverter for 12V 110 you should be able to run a full size PC mounted in the trunk and maybe velcro the keyboard to the dash.
Those slide out monitors for DVDs would probably be too small for PC display. What the heck do you do then?

I guess laptop is the way to go..

TURK

Back in Black · #18 (**permalink**) 02-09-2003, 08:41 PM

I do not know for sure, But I suspect a Windows 95 or newer, (laptop minimum, but you could use a battery backup system for power on a small desktop unit!) with at least 120 mmx is required. The software to program is contained on a few floppys, so it cannot be much memory...I will look into it soon, and post whatever I discover

Turk · #19 (**permalink**) 02-09-2003, 08:53 PM

Dell makes a nice tower, dual pentium IV, CD Burner, DVD, and a floppy. If you can get one of those 17 " flat screens tucked in under the dash over the tunnel, and run some wire to the trunk you should be able to mount that thing in the trunk right next to the amps. Be careful with magnetic fields. I think it effects the SDRAM negatively.

If you could put a small hub, and use it as a server than you can run CAT-5 cable to the cockpit,. Cat-5 is less bulky, and this set up would also allow you to have a small LAN in your car to hook up your laptop if you had to.
Just a thought!

TURK

Jamo · #20 (**permalink**) 02-09-2003, 09:07 PM

You're such a........Gashole. Yeah, that's it...a Gashole.